Wife Beating: Not Assault, Just Discipline

en are the protectors and maintainers of women. because Allah has
given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support
them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly
obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have
them guard. As to those women on whose part you fear disloyalty and
ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (next) do not share their beds,
(and last) beat (tap) them (lightly); but if they return to obedience,
seek not against them means (of annoyance): for Allah is Most High,
Great (above you all). (4:34)

Even here, that maximum measure is limited by the following:

a. It must be seen as A RARE EXCEPTION TO THE REPEATED EXHORTATION OF
MUTUAL RESPECT, KINDNESS AND GOOD TREATMENT, discussed earlier.
Based on the Qur'an and hadith this measure may be used in the cases
of lewdness on the part of the wife or extreme refraction and
rejection of the husband's reasonable requests on a consistent basis
(nushuz). Even then, other measures, such as exhortation, should be
tried first.

b. As defined by hadith, it is NOT PERMISSIBLE TO STRIKE ANYONE'S
FACE, CAUSE ANY BODILY HARM OR EVEN BE HARSH. What the hadith
qualified as dharban ghayra mubarrih, or light striking, was
interpreted by early jurists as a (symbolic) use of miswak (a small
natural toothbrush)! They further qualified permissible “striking” as
that which leaves no mark on the body. It is interesting that this
latter fourteen-centuries-old qualifier is the criterion used in
contemporary American law to separate a light and harmless tap or
strike from “abuse” in the legal sense. This makes it clear that even
this extreme, last resort, and “lesser of the two evils” measure that
may save a marriage does not meet the definitions of “physical abuse,”
“family violence, ” or “wife battering” in the 20th century law in
liberal democracies, where such extremes are so commonplace that they
are seen as national concerns.

c. The permissibility of such symbolic expression of the seriousness
of continued refraction DOES NOT IMPLY ITS DESIRABILITY. In several
ahadith, Prophet Muhammad (P) discouraged this measure. Among his
sayings are the following: “Do not beat the female servants of Allah;”
“Some (women) visited my family complaining about their husbands
(beating them). These (husbands) are not the best of you;” In another
hadith the Prophet(P) said

…How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel
and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?… (Sahih
Al-Bukhari,op.cit., vol.8.hadith 68,pp.42-43).

d. True following of the sunnah is to follow the example of the
Prophet Muhammad (P), who NEVER RESORTED TO THAT MEASURE, regardless
of the circumstances.

e. Islamic teachings are universal in nature. They respond to the
needs and circumstances of diverse times, cultures and circumstances.
Some measures may work in some cases and cultures or with certain
persons but may not be effective in others. by definition, a
“permissible” act is neither required, encouraged or forbidden. In
fact it may be BETTER TO SPELL OUT THE EXTENT of permissibility, such
as in the issue at hand, rather than leaving it unrestricted and
unqualified, or ignoring it all together. In the absence of strict
qualifiers, persons may interpret the matter in their own way, which
can lead to excesses and real abuse.

f. Any excess, cruelty, family violence, or abuse committed by any
“Muslim” can never be traced, honestly, to any revelatory text (Qur'an
or hadith). Such EXCESSES AND VIOLATIONS ARE TO BE BLAMED ON THE
PERSON(S) HIMSELF, as it shows that they are paying lip service to
Islamic teachings and injunctions and failing to follow the true
Sunnah of the Prophet (P).

Men*

Any Muslim that beats his wife, like what we consider beating in the US, is wrong. No bloodsheed, no cits, no bruises, no marks on her skin. Its an emotional act.. its not supposed to be physical. And yes I know some Muslims take this verse and think its allowable to beat the shit out of their wives.. but theyre transgressing what the Prophet PBUH said. Theyre twisting the words of Allah SWT and trying to find an excuse for their male aggression. Its haraam.. forbidden.

You actually believe all this Allah shit, don't you? Have you ever asked yourself why?

My dear LQ, thank you for your views. I ask you where they come from and why they have fallen into seeming universal disapprobation. I also ask you to realize that though you believe these commentaries make it permissible for a man to strike his wife, they do not. If a man disapproves of an action of his wife, let him say so. The coercion represented by physical force will never be acceptable. If a man put his hand to you he has demeaned you and humiliated himself. Any real man knows that..It would really take a jackass to go and get a toothbrush to express his annoyance. Are you quite sure that this is the procedure?Do you see that raising his hand in threat is outrageous? You are not a poodle to respond out of fear of being hit. Only a weakling would behave like this. It is not only your dignity that is at stake though your dignity and physical safety deserve the greater attention because you can experience the greater harm. Consider the children. What do you teach them when you allow a man to threaten you and hit you? How silly he must look, menacing his toothbrush at you.

Look, I give up. I don't believe you. This interpretation, even if correct, has not done you any good. Ninety per cent of Pakistani and Afghan women undergo hideous abuse. Many have had acid poured up their vaginas. Can we talk?Muslim men abuse women with acid in their satanic desire to control because they have been allowed to get away with it. These verses of Mohammad's set up a demonic entitlement of one sex lording it over another to the point of physical tyranny. Consider yourself above such treatment. Teach your daughters to refuse such men. I am afraid that if presented with superior physical force to enslave me I would have to retaliate. The protection of my daughters and sons would demand it. My sons would have the right to grow up free of being perpetrators because Mommy let Daddy beat her. The daughters should not be condemned to being victims because Mommy laet Daddy beat her and it must be right. If I had to wait till he went to sleep I would pulverize him to the best of my ability. Sorry. It's not an elegant answer, but I have talked to you from my heart. Turn it over in your mind. Do you want to add another century to the previous fourteen centuries of Muslim women being treated like shit? .

Allah means God. So.. are you asking me if I believe in God?

No. I am asking you WHY.

I love it that you called me dear. thank you. May peace be with you.
I know what Muslims have done. God says that He will degrade Muslims when they dont follow their religion correctly. THAT is why many Muslims are seen to be barbaric. They dont follow Islam properly. I am an American. Ethnically I am Pakistani.. I was born in the states but lived in Pakistan for couple of years. I went there for family reasons and moved back cuz I disliked it.. you know what I saw when I went there.. chaos. Muslims by name.. only implementing Islam when it suited them. Using the verses of the Quran to torture people. The Quran has verses in which is says to kill nonbelievers.. you want to know why. When those verses were revealed, Muslims were being persecuted. The Arabs were barbarians before Islam. They decided to kill Muslims and rape their Women. That is why Allah sent down those verses. It was to give permission to fight. THOSE verses cant be applied today.. not unless some asshole threatens your family. You cant kill someone unless without just cause. To understand the Quran you must understand why and when the verses were revealed. I hated the attacks of 9-11. I consider those people at greater fault cuz they were Muslims. THEY SHOULD KNOW what is right.. but they dont. Theyre psychopaths that teach radical Islam filled with violence. In fact they also manufacture sayings of the Prophet PBUH to justify their atrocious actions.
During Mohammads time.. women were treated like shit. They had NO rights. He gave them rights. You know what they used to do? They would bury their new born females alive like animals. When Islam came.. women had rights. They were respected. They were given a right to inheritance, rights as witnesses, and rights OVER their husbands.
Now you raise a lot of Questions.. so please forgive me if I dont answer all of them. Now when it comes to “beating” women.. you should no its NEVER recommended. Its the last resort. Anthropologically men are more aggressive they lose control over their anger.. were numskulls at times. This why the “beating” or tapping as I like to call it is allowed. AND I know no person goes gets a toot brush.. Muslims who dont follow Islam nearly kill their wives. Like you mentioned look at the assholes in Afghanistan. THEY ARENT FOLLOWING ISLAM CORRECTLY. Allah even says He will deal with them.. they are the transgressors.. and they are doubly at fault cuz they know the right way but are too brutish to change.
Now.. the Quran doesnt say its Obligatory to “beat” or wack. Its the LAST resort.. the whole action is more emotional than physical. Mohammad PBUH even said, “Do not beat the female servants of Allah;”
This might be deflecting.. but I have a slight point because Judaism Christianity and Islam are all Abrahamic religions.What does the Bible SAY in this verse:
“When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one drwaeth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her”
(Deuteronomy 25:11-15)

Youre asking WHY I believe in God. Ive studied Anthropology and reached a conclusion that its too sketchy. You cant PROVE that God exists but I have faith. Some might call it dumb and blind faith. I say better be safe than sorry.
And not Only that.. The Quran has hundreds of scientific findings in it. These findings are FAR beyond the Arabs times. No one could have know it back then. You can skim through this.. but I hope I make my point:

Religion and the Scientist
taken from http://www.themodernreligion.com
…seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds…

And there they were, on a flight from Cape Town to Durban, seated side by side, two gentlemen from two different worlds…. After the formalities were covered, the conversation continued….

Bob: I don't believe in God, but rather in science and technology, something tangible you see, but if you can prove to me scientifically that God does exist then I would consider such a thought.

Yunus: Okay, you being interested in technology, please answer this question……with regard to an advanced machine or electronic device, who would be the one to know the most about its mechanism or functioning?

Bob: Well, perhaps the person who has invented or manufactured such a machine.

Yunus: Can we agree that it is the maker or creator of the product who would know every-thing there is to know about the product.

Bob: I don't see why not, it sounds reasonable.

Yunus: Being knowledgeable in these matters, the next question I'd like to ask you is, Just how did the world or the universe come into existence?

Bob: According to recent scientific research, the whole universe was one gigantic mass, which scientists call the primary Nebula, they tell us that it was a cosmic explosion or a secondary explosion that gave rise to the sun, the stars, the planets and even the Earth we live on.

Yunus: Is this what you believe?

Bob: Yes of course, these are established facts based on scientific proofs. In fact, this idea was realised in 1973 and termed the 'BIG BANG' theory.

Yunus: I see, well I have a surprise for you….In the Holy Quraan, chapter 21, verse 30 says. “Do the disbelievers not see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then I split them apart”. Here we can see that the Holy Quraan is speaking about this 'BIG BANG' theory and let me tell you that the Holy Quraan was revealed over 1400 years ago.

Bob: I have heard about the Quraan, but can you refresh my memory.

Yunus: Sure, the Muslim believes the Quraan to be the word of God, pure and unadulterated which was revealed verbally to the Prophet of Islam, Mohammed, Peace be upon him, through the agency of the Angel Gabriel. The Holy Quraan was completed over a period of 23 years, that is over the prophetic life of the Prophet of Islam.

Bob: Are you sure that the Quraan is over 14 centuries old and secondly, that the Quraan has not been changed.

Yunus: Absolutely, it is a historical fact that the Holy Quraan was completed in the seventh century and has remained unchanged ever since. Historians, whether friends or foes to Islam, testify to this.

Bob: Well then, perhaps it's a guess.

Yunus:…..What does science say about the shape of the Earth ?

Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape.

Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, “Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night.” The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat.

Bob: Go on.

Yunus: Further in chapter 39, verse 5, it says, “He coils the night upon the day and he coils the day upon the night.” The word used in the original arabic text is “Kaw'wara” which means coils or winds, the significance of this verb is that you usually coil something around a rather spherical object. You say that this fact was discovered recently, well relatively recently, who could have mentioned this in the Holy Quraan over 1400 years ago ?

Bob: I'm not convinced.

Yunus: Fine, tell me where the light of the Moon comes from?

Bob: Centuries ago people thought that the Moon was a miniature version of the Sun and that both emitted their own light, but recently studies confirmed that the Moon reflected the Sun's light.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 25, verse 61 mentions, “Blessed is the one who placed the constellations in the Heaven and placed therein a lamp and a Moon reflecting light.” Here the Sun is referred to as a lamp for it has its own illumination, while the Moon is said to have reflected light or borrowed light, meaning not its own.

Bob: Its probably conjecture…guesswork.

Yunus: For the sake of a discussion I won't argue. Anyway, let us proceed……. When I was in school in the 80's, my teacher told me that the Sun remains stationary whilst the planets although rotating around their axes do revolve around the Sun as well.

Bob: Is that what your Quraan says, that the Sun is stationary….Ha!

Yunus: No, the Holy Quraan does not say this. This is what I learned in school.

Bob: Today, science has advanced. We have come to know that the Sun does in fact revolve around its own axis. You see, the Sun if observed with the apppropriate scientific apparatus reveals to possess the “Black spots”. Continuous observation shows that these black spots take 25 days to complete a revolution. Therefore we conclude that the Sun rotates and that it takes approximately 25 days to complete one full rotation around its axis.

Yunus: Well, this is nothing new to the muslim for it is revealed in the Holy Quraan in chapter 21, verse 33, “(God is) the One who created the night, the day, the Sun and the Moon, each one spinning around its own axis (travelling in an orbit)”. Here it is evident that the Sun and the Moon both rotate and further the celestial law of orbital movement is made mention of. You tell me who could have mentioned these scientific facts in the Holy Quraan which you say was discovered recently by your scientists ? Before you answer that question, tell me……is there a difference between a star and a planet?

Bob: Yes, today we know that stars are heavenly bodies like the Sun in that they produce their own light, while planets on the other hand, do not produce their own light….like the earth on which we live.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan mentions scientific facts not only in the field of astronomy.

Bob: I'm listening.

Yunus: In several verses of the Holy Quraan the details of the water cycle is mentioned. It explains that the water from the earth and ground rises up and forms clouds ………….. these clouds condense, there is lightning and rain falls from the clouds. This is evident from the following quotations ………..chapter 39, verse 21, “Have you not seen that Allah sent rain down from the sky and caused it to penetrate the ground, and come forth as springs…….”, In chapter 23, verse 18, “We sent down water from the sky measure and lodged it in the ground and we certainly are able to withdraw it”, and also in chapter 24, verse 43, “Have you not seen that God makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them a heap. And you see rain drops falling from the midst of it ……..”

Bob: According to my knowledge, the first coherent account of the water cycle was presented by Bernard Palissy in 1580.

Yunus: This is the exact distinction that the Holy Quraan makes between stars and planets. In chapter 86, verse 1-3, “By the sky and the night visitor, who will tell you what the night visitor is, the star of piercing brightness”, which obviously refer to the stars. The planets are described as ornaments in chapter 37, verse 6, as it reads, “We have indeed adorned the lowest heaven with ornaments, the planets”.

Bob: …………………………. Hmmmmmm…………………….It is no secret that the Arabs were advanced in the field of astronomy, and perhaps it was these learned astronomers that passed their findings to the Prophet.

Yunus: I do agree that the Arabs were advanced in astronomy, but I'm afraid that you have the order or sequence of events incorrect.

Bob: What do you mean?!

Yunus: Let me remind you that the Holy Quraan was revealed centuries before the Arabs became advanced in this field of astronomy, so it was the Arabs who learnt about astronomy from the Quraan and most definitely not vice versa.

The Holy Quraan in chapter 30, verse 48 mentions that, “God is the one who sends forth the winds which raised up the clouds. He spreads them in the sky as he wills and breaks them into fragments. Then you see rain drops issuing from within them…..”. While on the topic of Geography, I am sure you understand what is meant by the term “Folding”.

Bob: Yes, you see…. the crust of the earth is relatively thin and mountain ranges due to the phenomenon of folding provides stability for the earth.

Yunus: The Holy Quraan in chapter 78, verse 6-7 gives us an indication of the very same phenomenon as it says, “Have we not made the earth an expanse and the mountains stakes”.

Here the word “stakes” is synonymous with the word pegs as in holding the earth in place. Further the first part of this verse shows us that the earth is not flat for it is an expanse ….. meaning that you can walk and walk without falling off.

The former idea is clarified in chapter 21, verse 31…..”We placed the ground (mountains) standing firm so that it does not shake with them”. Here we are told that mountains allow for the maintenance of the earths stability by preventing the earth's shape to change in such a way so as to cause it to move out of its orbit. Permit me to go on ……..scientists pointed out recently that salt water and fresh water do not mix…….is that correct ?

Bob: That is correct…..this phenomenon is observed at various locations……for example the region where the Nile river meets with the Mediterranean sea and more especially in the Gulf stream where these two bodies of water flow together for thousands of kilometres.

Yunus: In chapter 25, verse 53 it reads, ……. “God is the one that has let free two seas, one is sweet and palatable and the other is salty and bitter. He placed an unseen barrier between them, a partition that is forbidden to pass”. A similar message is given in chapter 55, verses 19 and 20, “He has loosed the two seas. They meet together. Between them there is an unseen barrier which they do not transgress……..”

Bob: Maybe some Arabs whist diving or swimming made such an observation.

Yunus: Unlikely, what you fail to realize is that the Holy Quraan too testifies that it is an unseen barrier and therefore it could not and still cannot be observed.

Bob: I see….. according to Darwinism and the theory of evolution, it is claimed that all life began in the sea or oceans………can you tell me what does your Quraan say about this…..if anything at all.

Yunus: Yes, but first tell me just why does this theory have such a conclusion…..that life began in the Oceans….

Bob: Well, one of the reasons is that the chemical make-up or composition of human and animal life shows that water is the chief constituent. In fact between 50 and 90 %.

Yunus: In chapter 21, verse 30, it also says…………..”And We made every living thing from water. Will they still not believe”. Can you imagine that in the deserts of Arabia, where there is obviously a scarcity of water, who would have guessed that not only man but every living thing is made from water.

Bob: I am aware that Cytoplasm, the main constituent of the cell is composed of approximately eighty percent water and that every living creature is of fifty or ninety percent water.

Yunus: Who could have mentioned these facts in the Quraan over 1400 years ago ?…there are over hundreds of facts in the Holy Quraan that modern science cannot find fault with today. On the topic of theories …….Can you explain to me just what is meant by the theory of drifting continents.

Bob: Sure, all our continents were at one time parts of one consolidated land mass, then following an explosion, they were scattered or rather pushed away all over the surface of the earth. Therefore if you look carefully at the world map, you would see for example that the East coast of South America would fit neatly against the West coast of Africa.

Yunus: A similar idea is reflected in the Holy Quraan in the chapter 79, verse 30, “and the earth He extended after that and then drew from it water and pastures”. It says that the Earth passed through a stage when God had caused the land masses to drift apart.

Bob: Are you using scientific knowledge to prove the Quraan?

Yunus: No, the Quraan is not a book of science but rather a book of signs. In fact, it has over 6000 signs (verses) out of which 1000 of these deal with scientific knowledge. I am not using science to prove something correct, you need a yardstick or knowledge that is absolute, something ultimate…..

Yunus: To the educated men like yourself, those that do not believe in God, science is generally your yardstick…..but to the Muslim, the Holy Quraan is our ultimate yardstick….the Quraan is also referred to as the “Furqaan” which is the arabic word meaning, the criterion between that which is right and that which is wrong. Therefore I am using your yardstick 'science' to prove to you what is said in the Holy Quraan. What your yardstick has said in relatively recent times …… mine has said 14 centuries ago. Can we agree, therefore, that the Quraan is superior to science and that the Quraan is the ultimate yardstick.

Bob: Tell me more.

Yunus: The Quraan says in chapter 20, verse 53, “(God is the one) who sent down rain from the sky and with it brought forth a variety of plants in pairs”. Here the Holy Quraan mentions a scientific fact which was discovered much later in history ….. that is …….the plant kingdom too has male and female types. This is also echoed in chapter 13, verse 3, “………..and of all fruits (God) placed on the earth two pairs …….”

Yunus: A branch of the field of Zoology has recently pointed out that there exists various social dynamics in the animal world. The Holy Quraan tells us the same, that the animals and birds live in communities in chapter 6, verse 38, “There is no animal on earth, no bird which flies on wings, that (does not belong to) communities like you …..”.

Yunus: If I tell you that the Holy Quraan tells us of ants talking to one another, you will probably laugh, but the branch of Zoology that I am telling you about, has found the animal or insect which closely resembles the dynamics of the human, is the ant ……. for apart from an extremely 'advanced' system of communication (as is mentioned in the Holy Quraan, chapter 27, verse 18), They ….. the ants bury the dead and can have what can be said to be an equivalent of a market place.

Bob: Perhaps your Prophet was a very observant man who made notes of them.

Yunus: First I would like to inform you that history years witness that the Prophet of Islam was an illiterate man in that he had no formal schooling and therefore could not read nor write. In fact at that time a great majority of Arabs were illiterate with only a negligible number who were literate. Nonetheless, it is also mentioned that it is the female bee that collects honey …….. Do you think that anybody could be so observant as to pick this up? You have just reminded me about something even more significant; in chapter 16, verse 69, it reads, “…… from their (bees) bodies comes a liquor of different colours wherein is a remedy for men.” Today the medical scientist tell us that there are antiseptic qualities and applications of honey. Furthermore, I believe that it is used in the treatment of various allergies.

Bob: No wonder the Russian soldiers used to apply honey on their wounds. Yes, and as a result, the wounds left very little scar tissue.

Yunus: In chapter 16, verse 66, the Holy Quraan described blood circulation with regard to the production of milk in the cow ……. a thousand years before William Harvey made it famous to the western world. Let us examine the above mentioned reference, “Verily, in cattle too is a lesson for you, we give to you to drink of what is in their bodies, coming from a conjugation between the contents of the intestine and the blood, a milk, pure and pleasant for those who drink it.”

Bob: Tell me …… what does the Quraan say about human beings?

Yunus: This question calls for a dissertation, for the Quraan deals with humans from before the time of conception until after death. …..But will you accept a brief exposition on some of the human embryo logical data or proofs presented in the Quraan?

Bob: Please go on. This is interesting.

Yunus: We know that after fertilization, the egg or ovum descends from the fallopian tube to lodge itself inside the uterus for gestation. This is described in chapter 22, verse 5, “…. We cause whom we will to rest in the womb for an appointed term……”. As you know, there are structures or elongations from the egg which develops to draw nourishment from the uterus which is necessary for growth. These structural formations make the egg or rather the zygote seem to be literally clinging to the uterus ……. this, doubtedly, is a scientific discovery of modern times for the western world.

Did you know this appearance of clinging is described five times in the Holy Quraan. For example, in chapter 96, verses 1 & 2, “Read, in the name of your Lord who fashioned man from something which clings”. Similar ideas are found in chapter 22, verse 5 – chapter 23, verse 14 and chapters 40 & 75. Furthermore, foetal growth is described in great detail in chapter 23, verse 14, with regard to the development of the skeleton. “Then We made the sperm into a clot of congealed blood; Then made that clot into a lump (foetus); then We made out of that lump Bones and clothed the bones with flesh …………” …….. the verse goes on further in this manner of description.

Also with regard to the order or sequence of the senses, the Holy Quraan in chapter 32, verse 9 says, “……… He gave you (the faculties of) hearing and of sight……..”. Today, medical cience cannot argue with this sequence development of the senses in the foetus for it confirms that the development of hearing is completed by five months of pregnancy and that the eye is split open by the seventh month of pregnancy.

These facts and more have been brought to light by the western world as late as 1940. Furthermore, Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, “The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God.”

Bob: If this is true then how come it has not been recorded in the media?

Yunus: But it was ……. check the archives ……for example ……. the citizen, a Canadian Newspaper dated 22 November 1984, under the heading “Ancient Holy Book 1300 years ahead of its time”. Or the times of India, New Delhi …… dated 10 December 1984 under the caption “Koran scores over modern sciences.”

Bob: This is really fascinating……don't stop……….continue….

Yunus: At this point I am reminded of a very powerful verse of the Holy Quraan which appears in chapter 41, verse 53, “Soon shall we show them our signs in the (furthest) regions of the earth , and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the truth……”.

Yunus: The holy Quraan even speaks about diabetics.

Bob: What do you mean?

Yunus: You see, certain foodstuffs are declared unfit for human consumption and are therefore prohibited.

Bob: While we are on the topic of food ……. tell me why is it that a muslim is very particular about the words Halaal and Haraam …… What do they mean?

Yunus: That which is permissible is termed Halaal and that which is not permissible is termed Haraam and it is the Quraan which draws the distinction between the two.

Bob: Can you give me an example?

Yunus: Yes, Islam has prohibited blood of any type. You will agree that a chemical analysis of blood shows that it contains an abundance of uric acid, a chemical substance which can be injurious to human health.

Bob: You're right about the toxic nature of uric acid, in the human being it is excreted as a waste product……. in fact we are told that 98% of the bodies uric acid is extracted from the blood by the kidneys and removed through urination.

Yunus: Now I think that you'll appreciate the special prescribed method of animal slaughter in Islam.

Bob: What do you mean?

Yunus: You see…..the wielder of the knife, whilst taking the name of the Almighty, makes an incision through the jugular veins, leaving all other veins of the neck intact.

Bob: I see…..this causes the death of the animal by a total loss of blood from the body, rather than an injury to any vital organ.

Yunus: Yes, were the organs, example the heart, the liver, or the brain crippled or damaged, the animal could die immediately and its blood would congeal in its veins and would eventually permeate (spread throughout) the flesh. This implies that the animal flesh would be permeated and contaminated with uric acid and therefore very poisonous …… only today did our dietitians realise such a thing.

Bob: Again, while on the topic of food…….. Why do Muslims condemn the eating of pork or ham or any foods related to pigs or swine.

Yunus: Actually, apart from the Quraan prohibiting the consumption of pig flesh, ……in fact the Bible too in Leviticus chapter 11, verse 8, …..regarding swine it says, “of their flesh (of the swine) shall you not eat, and of their carcase you shall not touch; they are unclean to you.” Further, did you know that a pig cannot be slaughtered at the neck for it does not have a neck ……….that is according to its natural anatomy. A Muslim reasons that if the pig was to be slaughtered and fit for human consumption the creator would have provided it with a neck. Nonetheless, ……..all that aside, I am sure you are well informed about the harmful effects of the consumption of pork, in any form, be it pork chops …… ham …… bacon…….

Bob: The medical sciences find that there is a risk for various diseases as the pig is found to be a host for many parasites and potential diseases.

Yunus: Yes, even apart from that ….as we talked about uric acid content in the blood…..it is important to note that the pig's biochemistry excretes only 2% of its total uric acid content…… the remaining 98% remains as an integral part of the body. This explains the high rate of Rheumatism found in those who consume pork.

Bob: Let's fasten our seatbelts ……I think we are going to land shortly …. I guess its true – time does fly when you're having fun. I've never heard these arguments before and I'd like to hear more…….just what is the basic theme of the Holy Quraan anyway?

Yunus: The basic theme is of salvation, in this life and in the life hereafter….. it does not fall into the category of any known arts or sciences of the world, but since it addresses itself to mankind, it touches on almost all the disciplines which concern Him. Thus the Quraan surprisingly encompassed truths which were to be discovered and confirmed much later as our discussion has shown.

Yunus: This reminds me of the wise words of Sir Francis, who said, “It is a little knowledge of science that makes you an Atheist, and it is an in-depth study of science that makes you a believer in God Almighty”.

Thereafter nobody said a word ……..they each sat back and looked forward waiting for touch down….

I ask the question on the Bible just in case if you were Christian. I already made assumptions in my head what this verse means. But I decided not to write it down. I dont want to disrespect anyones beliefs.. so if any of you are Christians.. those that are learned in Christianity preferably.. please explain this verse.

Astonishing stuff. So you believe in God as a kind of insurance policy. OK.

The rest of you long post is, frankly, cause for mirth. Take just one example ….. The Koran says the Earth is flat: the correction was made at a later date. Not that I care one way or another. By the way, where did Darwin say life began in the oceans?

When the old guys wrote the Koran, did they pen that which had been spoken by Mohammed? Some angel enlightened Mohammed about all this, yes? Were there any witnesses? Life in the hereafter? Here are the words of the great Clarence Darrow: “The origin of the absurd idea of immortal life is easy to discover: it is kept alive by hope and fear, by childish faith, and by cowardice.”

Sorry …… forgot to mention this …….. have you any idea of how many BILLIONS of the world's people eat pork and other pig products? Is this why the world's human population is declining so catastrophically? Hardly anyone left …..

Have you ever read “The God Delusion” or “God Is Not Great”? Do so.

By the way, tell me how you came to the decision that God might exist. Did it have anything to do with your parents? How old were you?

Well at least you read it.

Yunus:…..What does science say about the shape of the Earth ?

Bob: Previously, Man thought that the Earth was flat, until Sir Frances Drake in 1607 finally proved it to be spherical. Today, the term Geoid is used to describe this spherical shape.

Yunus: Amazingly the Holy Quraan in chapter 31, verse 29 says, “Have you not seen how God merges the night into the day and merges the day into the night.” The use of the word merges emphasizes a slow gradual change, and this is not possible if the earth is flat.

SO.. the Quran does NOT say the Earth was flat. In fact, it implies the opposite. Just wanted to make sure you read it properly.

Mohammad was illiterate. If you remember from my previous post it said that. So he didnt really write it down. I hope you read it. And yes an Angel did enlighten him. And the only time an Angel was seen by other men was when they came in the form of a human being. So technically speaking there werent witnesses. But even if there were would I convince you..? I doubt it. Oh and if there isnt life in the hereafter.. there arent any rules. WHO has the right to decide what is morally right or wrong? Man sure doesnt. Slavery, intolerance, inequality, and all the genocides can certainly amount to that. Did you know Islam gave the right for women to vote BEFORE the any nation. How strange..
Also.. according to David Deamer, a professor at University of California at Santa Cruz, Darwin said life had begun from oceans or warm ponds of water.
Anyways.. excuse my ignorance.. but I didnt know who Clarence Darrow was so I googled him. I know NOT everything online is true.. but it says he is “best known for defending teenage thrill killers Leopold and Loeb in their trial for murdering 14-year-old Bobby Franks (1924)..” Either way he is an agnostic man.
Either way.. even if there is no God Id rather live a life of peace and happiness and have no hereafter than live a life with no morals and find out there is one.
If there is no God where did you come from? If there is no God how do you explain the metaphysical..? You cant can you.

You have picked out a verse that has nothing to do with your problems as a Pakistani woman who stands 90 per cent likely to be hideously abused. If you read the verse,” taketh him by the secrets”realize that it means that she has grabbed him by his penis to give her husband the advantage in a physical fight between the husband and another man. I am not certain if taketh him by the secrets might not mean castrate the man. I can not enlighten you here except to say it has nothing to do with your right to preserve your life and home from destruction by a husband gone berserk.The draconian punishments of Deuteronomy also do not survive the blood of Christ.They apply to a time before the mercy of God through Jesus was manifested.The Scriptures say that because of the sacrifice of Jesus, Mercy and justice have kissed and mercy has triumphed over justice. So do not be too bothered by Deuteronomy.

I do have a verse for you if you are looking for back up in your quest to preserve your life sanity and dignity. Malachi(OT) reports that YHWH hates a man who would strike his garment. Here garment is the familiar term for wife. In the New Testament Jesus declares that man and a woman who have married have become one flesh.In Peter the husband is instructed to care for his wife as he would his own body. He observes that a man does not hate his own body but nurtures it and cares for it. More to the point, the scriptures point out that a woman is coheir with the man. Realize what this does. It was customary for the woman to inherit less than a man in Judaism. But this was not to be the case after the Messiah. Note that Job's second set of daughters had an inheritance that was the equal of their brothers. Job's daughters inherited as sons. This is a type of the woman in the kingdom of God. She inherits as a son. There is no difference in the honor that a woman is given by YWHW and the honor given to a man. Realize that both the woman and the man are made in the image and likeness of God. Further understand that in the kingdom to come women will sit in judgment. Jesus is quite specific when he says the Queen of the South shall sit in judgment of the generation of people, both men and women , who rejected Christ. The Queen of the South is the Queen of Sheba, the woman who traveled from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon. Clearly this thirst for wisdom was regarded as righteousness and that queen will judge men and women in the world to come.THe scriptures also indicate that men and women who follow Jesus will judge the fallen angels who have inspired much of the evil in our world. Now if a woman is to judge demonic beings and sit in judgment on human beings,is made int he image and likeness of God and is coheir with the man in the kingdom of God, surely she has the right not to be hit by some maladjusted creep. I hope that this helps you. You see Jesus represents a restoration of human relations to God's original intention. The enmity between women and men was not YHWH's original plan, but the result of sin. I have said a lot of disparate things to you because I am vaguely aware that you were hoping to show that YHWH hates women as much as Allah, but it is not so. There is so much more to say but I do not want to be so tedious to those who have no interest whatever in this topic of discussion. You may write to me if you like. It would be my pleasure to respond.
Bron

I forgot to add, dear LQ, the peace of Christ be with you and yours in all things. I want the best for you .

If something is forbidden by God there is a reason. You dont need to find an answer you know. But if you want me to.. Ill try my best. Look at swine flu.. how many American died? I know.. it came from a virus from a pig and eventually turned into a human virus but still. Its origin in a pig. Did you know in Islam any meat you eat should be drained of blood. Its HIGHLY recommended. Our religious way or preparing meat prevents the avian flu, Tuberculosis, mad cow disease and many others. BUT.. other than health reasons lets look at other issues. According to many geneticists.. there are a great deal of genetic similarities between pigs and humans. Many of the proteins are quite close in sequence and structure. Around 60% similarity at the genomic level. There are many animals similar to that.. we wouldnt dare eat them. For example a close “relative” of the human species would be the chimp. Look at how the bush meat crisis in africa is startling anthropologist all over the world. Yet a pig is killed and no one cares.
Either way.. making an argument that eating swine should be aloud makes no sense whether there is a God or not. Your focusing on what God has asked you to do. Just cuz you find no reason behind its justification doesnt prove there is no God. Though you have the right to say and believe what you want. Im just saying for arguments sake.. it makes no sense.
And no I did not read those books, Maybe I should.
I realized there was a God when I saw my mom's cancer vanish when I made supplication. I have no need to think there is no God. Science didnt cure her.. the treatments were futile cuz it came back again. But thankfully she is fine now. And with the experiences Ive gone through in my life.. there is no doubt God is in existence. I was at the age of 14 just for your curiosity.

Leave your shitty discussions and lies about Islam. Concerntrate on your US economy which is going down day by day or else you will die with hunger in near future.

Allah means God. As a Christian please dont say that Allah hates women. He doesnt. The Quran says, “Their Lord responded to them: I never fail to reward any worker among you for any work you do, be you male or female – you are equal to one another. ” (Al-Quran 3:195).
Surah Nisa: verser 19: “O you who believe! You are forbidden to inherit women against their will, and you should not treat them with harshness, that you may take away part of the Mahr you have given them. And live with them honourably. If you dislike them, it may be that you dislike a thing and Allâh brings through it a great deal of good.”
Islam did the greatest service to the female sex, and not only by depriving fathers of their absolute authority. It gave complete freedom; it gave individuality, an independence of thought and opinion, and formally acknowledged their natural rights. The Messenger of God said, “The most perfect of believers in belief is the best of them in character. The best of you are those who are the best to their women.”[1] The Prophet of Mercy tells us that a husband’s treatment of his wife reflects a Muslim’s good character, which in turn is a reflection of the man’s faith. How can a Muslim husband be good to his wife? He should smile, not hurt her emotionally, remove anything that will harm her, treat her gently, and be patient with her. This is what a Muslim man should do for his wife. If Muslims havent shown to be this.. they ARE NOT good Muslims.
Sadly.. I am still confused about the verse. Since you did your best to explain it.. thank you. Oh and by the way.. We follow Jesus too. We believe Marry was a Virgin and was a great friend of the Lord. The only thing is.. we believe that Jesus was the son of Marry. The holy spirit (Gabriel) blew another life into her and allowed Jesus to live within her womb. We consider him to be a Prophet of the Lord and that Jesus (PBUH) was lifted into the heavens before the crucifixion. The person that had died was another man in our belief. We also believe in Moses.. Solomon.. the Queen of Shebah is also mentioned in the Quran. Noah, Lot, Jacob, Jonas, Isaac, Abraham, and many more. Jesus also said there was a messiah by the name Ahmad (according to our beliefs.. no disrespect). Mohammad PBUH was also known as Ahmad.. we believe that Jesus will come down once more.. near the end of time and defeat the Anti Christ.
Either way.. I hope to answer more tomorrow. It is late for me. I have class in the morning. Thank you for replying. I have no harsh feelings for you. I just dont want you to think that ISLAM is the cause the of the craziness in the world. The problem is the people twisting their faith and using it to justify their insane desires. Islam means to submit and attain peace.

Sorry, LQ, but this is tedious. You are one of those victims of brainwashing who is trained to believe everything uttered by those whose concept of education and enlightenment is your Koran. The ancient Greeks knew damn well the “roundedness” of the Earth, a little while before Drake's great great great great great ………… grandfather was born, so please broaden your reading.

What is all this nonsense about there being no morals or rules without the theory of God? Explain yourself, please. Why doesn't man have the power and intellect to decide what is right and wrong? Man must invent God first? Why?

You refer to slavery and other obscenities of human behaviour. Here's another Darrow quote for you: “As long as the world shall last there will be wrongs, and if no man objected and no man rebelled, these wrongs would last forever.” You think belief in God/Allah/Jehovah/Whoever has made one iota of difference to our capacity for doing wrong? I would argue it has actually enhanced our hideous capabilities in such matters. (Do any of the Eastern religions advocate death by stoning?) Think of the slaughter of innocent Jews and Muslims by the Crusaders. Think of the uncounted legions of non-Muslims put to the sword during Islam's bloody and brutal spread. Think of the death penalty hanging over those who wish to shun Islam. Religion is necessary to bring good and understanding and law and order? Yeah, right.

Define “metaphysical”, please. You “argue” that if I exist, God must be. Boy, I bet you were top of your class in logic, weren't you? Am I allowed to come back at you with “Where did God come from?” or is that not allowed in your little universe of rationality? People like you make me breathless with astonishment, for you reckon that anything which cannot be explained warrants the existence of God. Once upon a time, people had no idea why water ran off a duck's back or what fire was or why eclipses occurred or why there were seasons or what stars were or why ice floats on water or what causes a rainbow (the Bible is hilarious on this one) or what lightning was (God's carefully directed punishment, all too often), so they resorted to the gutless, brainless “answer” that such marvels were all God's doing. You are of this ilk, you poor thing. Doubtless you will poison your children's minds into believing the “logic” of such mumbo-jumbo. And here is ANOTHER Clarence Darrow quote: “Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt.”

LQ, enjoy your blind religious faith. May it give you solace and happiness (oh dear, I feel yet ANOTHER Clarence Darrow quote coming on ………. “Some of you say religion makes people happy. So does laughing gas.”) but do not deny the fact that there is not a scintilla of evidence to support your belief. Yes, you may be right. God might indeed exist. Don't claim it as certainty, though, for in doing so you make yourself appear a fool.

No it doesn't mean submit to attain peace. It just means submit. Nothing with human dignity submits without a reason better than brute force. Allah is not YHWH. Allah does indeed hate women which we can clearly see by their absence from the Muslim paradise which evidently is akin to a brothel with little boys being available to all the suicide bombers and other perpetrators of misery on the earth. Look at what you believe. How can it be true? You believe that Gabriel blew Jesus into Mary's womb? SO who is the father? Jesus birth was the fulfillment of a prophecy 600 years before his birth that he would be born of a virgin in the city of Bethlehem. This would make that prophecy predate the existence of Islam by 1200 years. HOw could JEsus announce Mohammad, the greater announcing tghe coming of the clearly inferior? You see why I am not inclined to pay too much attention to Mohammad's embellishments. Thank you for saying you are not angry. I have no idea why you should be angry. Criticism of Islam is something to get used to. It helps one .We dont want to get sloppy and ridiculous in our thinking do we?

Please don't copy and paste long winded stuff. I will delete next time.

How in God's (!!!!!!) name do you know what pleases, or otherwise, God? Can't you see you are telling God what to think? Read the 23rd Psalm (such a beautiful piece of nonsense). What is it? Nothing more than a job description or set of orders for what God, created in man's image must do. God, you will do this …… protect me from enemies; keep me from hunger and want; give me the good life and comfort and plenty; and so on. Pitiful, if beautiful.

Swine flu. OK, pigs are genetically close to humans, so it is hardly surprising a virus that affects pigs might affect us, too. This makes pigs unclean? Um ……. didn't good old God invent pigs? One wonders why the great know-all ever did such a silly thing. Fancy inventing “dirty” animals. (What makes them “dirty”, by the way?) What was that about avian 'flu some time ago? Birds are “dirty”, too? Must we not eat birds?

Yes, I am aware that Islam has copied the Jewish beliefs about how to slaughter animals.

For a very long time of human history, people have eaten people, by the way. Life goes on.

I cannot ever prove God does not exist, nor is there any reason I should attempt to do so. The burden of proof lies with you you claim his/hers/its existence. As I have said numerous times on this site, prove to me Bertrand Russell's Teapot does not exist!

I am delighted beyond words that your dear mother's cancer vanished. Long may she live and be happy and active enough to kick your butt when you get out of line!! Mothers are good at that, aren't they? Her wonderful recovery, though, does not prove God's existence, and you know it as well as I. I rejoice that she came through her ordeal, but what of the MILLIONS who do not? Those who die of cancer and heart problems and untold numbers of diseases and natural tragedies and murders and neglect and torture and starvation and suicide bombing and ……. Need I continue? In your opinion, God views your dear mother as more deserving of his loving touch and miraculous care than a child dying somewhere in the Congo or one whose eyes are being eaten by maggoty things? Why? Ah, yes …… God works in mysterious ways! Silly me!

I quite understand why you wish me to desist from my discussions of Islam. It is a “religion” that doesn't bear thinking about. Tell me ONE lie I have ever written on this site about Islam. Islam is the vilest, most noxious, toxic, suffocating, evil, putrid, destructive disease ever invented by the human mind. Muslims are worse than bubonic rats. They should, in their entirety, be eradicated from the planet. They are an insult to intelligence and a sad waste of human resources. They are lower than vermin. Do I make myself clear? You refer to my discussions of Islam as “shitty”. I congratulate you on your perspicacity. Shitty is that which applies to that which is shitty, and there is nothing shittier than Islam.

My US economy? Not mine, Muslim anus. I am not American. Still, America will never go down the economic gurgler, no matter what difficulties it faces. America is the economic miracle that drives the planet; the controlling nucleus upon which the entire world depends for its day to day welfare. You Islamic shitheads will NEVER understand America. NEVER. America, flawed though it be, is the bastion of all we not of your toxic faith hold dear. America, in its brief existence, has done more for the world and the cause of Man, than any other country. America continues to be the hope and beacon of justice. Dynamic America will continue to make mistakes (are you familiar with Cardinal Newman's words, oh shithead? No, I though not) but it will, by virtue of its indefatigable energy, fair play and commitment to excellence and belief in the brotherhood of man, go forth to unending triumphs which, as ever, will reward us all. Meanwhile, you Islamic scum will greedily clutch the rantings of the foullest arsehole our planet has ever seen and take his jaundiced words as truth.

All the while, as you camel fanciers, wife beaters, stoners to death, honour killers and clitoridectomists pour vitriol upon America, your leaders go cap in hand every year to beg money from the country you hate lest millions of you starve. I can see why you hate yourselves so much. You are nothing. An evil nothing. Turds.

Bronwyn, dear lady, this is a response to several of your recent posts.

You are MAGNIFICENT.

Yes, Beejj, she's great, isn't she?

Clarence Darrow Beej! a great man, the most formidable advocate of his day,and even feted by
H L Mencken who covered the Scopes monkey trial for the Baltimore Sun.
Mencken described him as an infidel;meant of course as a compliment.
I'm in the process of trying to add the film to my collection as it gave me such pleasure when I first saw it 30 yrs or so ago.
It's time for a remake but only with very competent actors.
The script of course is a matter of record.

You are not the first ethnic subcontinental to visit the land of your fathers;and then recoil in horror at the black comedy that your naive eyes witness.
Has it never occurred to you that the basis for failure of theses benighted hell holes ;is the culture of Islam.
As a cultural American why not cast off baggage of your death cult and live as areal American?
It's only when you rid yourself of the primitive superstitions of your relatives including the high improbability of Mo's X rated paradise that you can think rationally as a free thinker.
Just think for a moment as to why your parents went to the USA.
The answer was surely that a better life free of barbaric religious dogma was available there
and not in the living nightmare that is Pakistan.

I concur. You're awesome, Bronwyn!

You asked me why I believe in God. I gave you the reasons. You make 50 arguments and decide its okay to not give proof. You give opinions in a way that clearly shows you have no means but to destroy my argument. I thought Id show you MY views, just cuz you asked me to. You said,”Tell me ONE lie I have ever written on this site about Islam.” There are so many.. Im not going to waste time with you and tell you what I believe are lies. There is no use. Will I enlighten you.. or change your mind.. NO. I doubt I will.
You call us nothing, you make us barbarians, you say we are wife beaters, you say I am an Islamic scum.. your posts are filled with hate for ALL Muslims. You truly hate us all. Believe what you want. I'm not here to tell you what to do. According to Islam I have no right to dictate anyones life besides my own. But all I ask in return is that you respect me too. You raised many good points but I will not refute them. You and me are not only on the opposite sides of the page but were in different worlds. You say things that are illogical and irrelevant (according to me.. I mean no disrespect). We were talking about God.. if He exists. The proofs I pasted are enough for me. They dont have to for you. Call me brain washed if you will.. I dont care. I have as much right to believe what I want. I question my faith everyday and unlike you I get answers that ARENT filled with hate. You falsely accuse Muslims.. well I say this.. come and do what you will with us. I honestly dont care. The whole point of life is a test according to our religion. If you make our lives hard.. I know God will reward us for being patient. Oh.. and I dont mean you as in you all. I love my non Muslim friends. Whether they are atheists, polytheists, or agnostics. When I write the word you Im referring to you Beej. May God have mercy on your soul and help you with obtaining peace. I know you dont believe in a deity.. but in the end if I am right I hope the best for you.
Peace..
PS I must ask you to ignore the guy who wrote shitty.

You said this, “I cannot ever prove God does not exist, nor is there any reason I should attempt to do so”.. well let me tell you this I cant prove that there is a higher being. I believe there still is though. I look at it like this.. God created time and space. Therefore He is not limited by time and space. So for Him, there is no beginning or end. Thats all I can say for now. If you still want all my refutations.. let me know. The thing is have finals coming up. I just want to explain my views to you.. that too in a peaceful way.

Are you Muslim to claim what the word Islam means. Do you know Arabic? Do you know what salama means.. its the root word for Islam. Salama means peace. You claim things with NO proof. Youll take a verse from the Quran and not only assume the worst but you will add to it. That is not what I did for the Bible. You know why? Cuz as a Muslim I was taught to respect you.. you are a human being and have views. My job is to inform you when you say something wrong about MY beliefs. Im not here to say convert. Im here to explain Islam to you.
You said, “SO who is the father?” for Jesus.. Do you not beleive God made the heavens and the earth as a christian? Do you not beleive He is the lord of all things? Do you not know He can do anything? All power is with Him. Yet you ask such a thing. If He can create you and me, he can definitely allow parthenogenesis to occur.
You said, “Allah does indeed hate women which we can clearly see by their absence from the Muslim paradise”.. did you know what Allah says.. There will be twice as many women in heaven than men. So please dont say things that you not of. I ask you. I dont claim things about your religion. I didnt interpret that verse.. I asked YOU. Youre Christian NOT me. I have no right. But YOU think YOU have a right to interpret the Quran without having any prior knowledge about it.
Let me ask you this.. If Jesus is the son of God.. and he has a father who is also so God how is Christianity monotheistic? How can a god die? I thought God was immortal. In Islam we believe God has no limits. He is not bound by a world He has created. If you believe in the trinity.. how is 3 = 1. When did Jesus proclaim he was God? I know the quote, Before Abraham I am.. but did you know the bible was in Aramaic. NOT English. The word Iam means God. So before Abraham there was God.. not Jesus according to the translation from Aramaic to English. Tell me if I say anything wrong. I mean no disrespect. Im dont mean to argue Christianity is wrong, I just want you to know what Islam is. Dont say falsehood and pass it on as the absolute truth.

Forgive me this once. Wont happen again. And thank you for the warning.

Dear LG, I promise you that I do not want to insult you, but we need to come to an understanding. You would have no greater evidence of my contempt for you than if I smiled and nodded at the outrageous lies that you have accepted and let them go unchallenged. I engage you for the same reason I would attempt to wipe graffitti off of the Thinker (Rodin. Please google it and you will thank me. )Whatever Islam thinks of you, to me you are that Thinker. Whoever attempts to lead the thinker by brute force is an utter ass. To me the thinker could easily have been called “image and likeness of God”, but that would have been redundant. “Thinker” is enough.

You ask me to be silent when i know you are factually incorrect.You have carved out being right on all things Islamic because you are a Muslim . NO. You are only right when you tell the truth. I only have to believe facts. Islam means submission . That's all it means. You are etymologically wrong to equate salaam, with Islam. Period.

Similarly, being a Christian myself does not give me a monopoly on any part of the truth. I dont own a franchise on being Christian. I do not worship a God I can lead about. There is much of Him I do not know. and plenty of this world that I have not experienced.I do not expect you to show me a deference I do not deserve. Challenge me to the ground. I intend to challenge you. May I observe that you need to be challenged. Proverbs says” iron sharpens iron and a man sharpens the face of his friend”. If you really want me to speak to you about the Trinity we are going to clash. May we both become sharper. I will write later about your question and succinctly as I can. Ciao.

Christine, thank you. I reread what I wrote to see what you liked. I just plod on and try not to be too wordy. I try to answer and sum up with a few pithy words, tightly written, like you do. Most times I just react and hope for the best. It is a real pleasure to read your posts.
Bron

You are always the toughest to answer and thank you does not begin to cover it. I like to think that if I walked into a restaurant, never having seen your face, that I would still know you by your opinions and your voice. I like to think that I would recognize the massive intelligence, infused with good humor and joie de vivre. If, inyour travels you receive an unlooked for smile of recognition from a woman hurrying by, that woman that could be me.
Bron

Odyssia, it is so wonderful being on this site with you. I am always interested in your views. They are always worth having. You know, whenever I pass a neighborhood where a friend lives, I feel distinctly comfortable because I know that somewhere in there is a friend of mine. I now feel that way about China. Now when I read about China I think, Odyssia lives there. : )

Tell me LQ do you have anymore inaginary conversations to bore us with?
The very idea that Allah via the 700 winged Gabriel made these fanciful revelations to a simpleton like Moped would embarrass even the most accomplished liar.
As someone who has often made the plane journey between Kaapstad and Durbs the only thing that most men are interested in would be a tin of Castle.
As for the science; the asinine plagiarism that you asign to the Koranus in revealing scientific truths before they were known is pathetic in the extreme.
Why not tell us more on Moped's journey to heaven on a space faring donkey?
It may be of course that all the nasa scientists are closet Muslims who consult the Koranus for their inspiration???
I have a feeling that if you were told that were true; you would accept it as fact!
As any South African of my aquaintance would say.
You're full of shit man.

Do you know Arabic? I have taken Arabic for 10 years? I can read, write, and speak it. Can you? Do you know the root word of Islam? “Islam is derived from the Arabic root “Salama”: peace, purity, submission and obedience.” You cant debate that this is false. To completely understand look at the Arabic lettering. Islam is an Arabic word.. I ask you.. would you derive the root word from Arabic of English? Youre saying Islam is not salaam.. I am not either.. Im saying their root words are the same. In Arabic the sound of 'S' 'L' 'M' when put together are pronounced Salama.. the letters (IN ARABIC) of 'S' 'L' 'M' are present in the word Islam. So yes.. Islam does mean to submit in a way of peace.
Its not just peace.. its to sacrifice your well being for the other.. its to protect those you care for even if it causes you grief. Its to think BEYOND oneself and think of the human race entirely. This is what TRUE Islam is. The Quran says if you kill one person (Muslim or NonMuslim) it is as if you have killed the entire world.
You said, “Whoever attempts to lead the thinker by brute force is an utter ass.” This complies with Islam. In the Quran it says “There is no compulsion in religion (way of life).”
You can write back when you have an answer to my Question. And I accept your faith.. why cant you accept mine? I am trying to explain what Islam is. Who do you think would know more? A Muslim who studied Islam for over 10 years or you? I ask you about youre religion.. Im not making accusations.. I question. So I dont ask you to stay silent. Express your views.. just dont say they are hundred percent fact cuz truthfully they arent. Like you said, “You are only right when you tell the truth.”.. and with that I concur.

oh geez, not another “you don't understand Islam because you can't speak
arabic” comment…

you make me laugh. Youre insulting claims just lessen the scope of your arguments. Try to explain this part to me at least…
Professor Keith More, an embryologist at the university of Toronto in Canada, was asked to make a comparative study of the Embryo logical data in the Holy Quraan with that of modern scientific knowledge and he responded as follows, “The 1300 year old Quraan contains messages so accurate about embryonic development that muslims can reasonably believe them to be from God.”

I mean to say you dont understand the meaning of the word Islam because you dont understand Arabic. Sorry for the confusion.

The nuances of the meaning of Islam are irrelevant when the religion is dominated by people who define Islam much differently than you do. I know you want to “help us understand”, but what's to understand? The writing is on the wall. Radicals dominate the religion of Islam and the majority of peaceful Muslims have made themselves irrelevant in their silence. Except for the few who choose to attack the rational people like us rather than attack the problem from within their own ranks.

Do you know what “Imshi”means LQ.
It's arabic you know!
I whisper it to imaginary Allah every day!

So… I am thinking this the reason why Sharia countries want to keep women and girls ignorant. So they dont realize that this shit is whack.

Its slang. I only can decipher from Quranic Arabic. And your sarcasm strengthens your point very clearly.. as does mine.

“Radicals dominate the religion of Islam and the majority of peaceful Muslims have made themselves irrelevant in their silence. Except for the few who choose to attack the rational people like us rather than attack the problem from within their own ranks.”
You make a great point and I wont deny that its obligatory on us to stop all the injustices radical and terrorist Muslims have brought.. but let me tell you this.. Islam still is NOT a religion filled with terror. Those that go about killing themselves only create their own doom. Suicide is forbidden in Islam. So what do you think suicide bombers are doing…? Something that goes against Islam. They go about bombing innocent people. Islam doesnt justify these ass holes. Islam in fact does the opposite. According to the Shariah.. the bombers of 9/11 should be given the death penalty. Verses of the Quran instructs believers to bring humanity together.. whether people are Muslim or non Muslim. Allah asks us to treat the rest of the human race with respect.. therefore no ill-will between them. And thank you Infidelesto. Im happy youre letting me speak. And thank you for telling me what you think. To be honest.. I agree.. I like to think that majority of Muslims arent radical. Ive seen Muslims in the US.. I dont know any that are radical. I know Muslims from the Shariah implementing nations such as Saudi Arabia that are more pious than me. There are many kindhearted Muslims.. the problem is with these factions and groups that use Islam for political gain. The Taliban, Hammas, Al-Qaeda.. did you know the Taliban declared the use of glasses (for sight) to be forbidden for a Muslim…? To all the other normal.. brain using Muslims these people are crazy. They are the ones that are brainwashed.. by who you may ask? Their corrupt leaders.. not the Quran.. not Mohammad PBUH. These barbaric people use the verses of Quran.. use verses of fighting and implement them today. Those verses of fighting were revealed when Muslims were being persecuted by the barbaric pre Islamic Arabs. They were dying left and right.. that is when these verses came. These terrorist groups have taken youths and caused them to go from true Islam. They have twisted and fabricated sayings of Islam. Yes.. I consider them terrorists.. to me they lost their faith long ago. To me they arent Muslims..

Any country that doesnt allow women to learn should repent to God and change themselves.. Muslims should NEVER take the right of an education from any person.. whether they are muslim or non muslim.. male or female.
And there arent many shariah implementing countries.. those that do sadly implement it in the wrong way. You CANT give any form of punishment to any person without a trial.. you CANT cause their rights as a human being to be lost. So if you read stories random floggings .. let me tell you this.. that isnt Islam. Muslims might be doing it.. but those “Muslims” are assholes..

It's not jsut the Taliban, Al Qaeda and Hamas. It's full blown Islamic governments you should be speaking out against. One of the greatest tragedies on earth is the pathetic non-effort of the international community to address the human rights abuses of Islamic Law. It's disgusting what people have to endure under Sharia…disgusting. And if any American Muslim defends Islamic Law and don't speak out against the separation of mosque and state, then they don't belong in America and are my enemy. There is absolutely NO DEFENSE of Sharia…NONE.

” Islam still is NOT a religion filled with terror.”

Constant terror acts in the name of Islam on a daily basis argue against your point, and it's not just the Hadiths that advocate violence, it's the Koran too. I can understand your rejection of the context of those verses, but you don't need to tell me, you need to actively engage within the Muslim community to get the Koran revised or something because there's some bad craziness that millions of Muslims are still taking literally.

What you should do is actively engage the muslim community to deal with the problem. Go join up with AIFDemocracy and you will have my utmost respect.

I hear what you are saying.. and you are definitely right about one thing… WE NEED to help diffuse these violent groups. There is no doubt about it.
As for the Shariah.. its the law we believe God put down for us to follow. Islamic law is NOT just punishments you know. Its filled with methods to run a nation. Its a form of government. Now… do I think Shariah should be applied today.. yes.. but can it.. NO. Let me explain further before you call me your enemy.. please. Shariah cannot be applied today because there is no uniform Islamic state. Islam is democratic.. every Muslim.. like EVERY single one that is passed puberty.. should vote for a single leader.. a Caliph. This person should represent Muslims to the nations.. now the only way he can enforce Islamic law is if they have an Islamic government.. but there is NO Islamic government today.. not one. There are Muslim nations.. not Islamic nations. If there were.. youd see that no one would be persecuted. The whole reason why people have their rights taken away is cuz Muslims only implement the punishments of Shariah. Islamic law does have punishment that may seem barbaric.. such as committing adultery.. the punishment is to be stoned to death. Now.. even if a person has committed such an act.. the Prophet said to remain silent. Leave it between you and Allah.. once you announce your sins and become a witness against YOURSELF then the law can be applied. My point is this.. Muslims are NOT recommended to spy and go adulterer-hunting or something.. THAT is forbidden and a major sin in the eyes of God.. the only time you apply the shariah is WITH an Islamic government.. WITH witnesses, with a trial, with a judge, with leniency. Any stoning that had occurred during Mohammads time were people that came TO HIM.. THEY told him their sins on purpose because they feared that God wouldnt forgive them. In fact there is a case a man yelled that he committed adultery four times to Mohammad PBUH.. Mohammad ignored him each time except the last.. the he asked the man if he was crazy. SO when it comes to Shariah law's punishment.. you must be lenient.. you CANT enforce it on people without the WHOLE system running.. without the majority of the society as Muslims.. and YOU cant become the enforcer of any punishment unless you have been put into power by the Caliph.. WHO doesnt exist.. and HASNT existed for several of hundreds of years.. hence the psychotic method of implementing Shariah's punishment.

No, LQ, Islam – submission and salaam peace are not the same.You knew this because of your ten years of Arabic. You hoped to deceive us. Your argument is essentially that because salaam and Islam have the same consonant clusters, they also share the same meaning. This is very thin. I have only a soupcon of Latin, a smattering of Greek and nearly fluent French. No Arabic at all, and yet your argument seemed absurd.There must be hundred of Arabic words with the same consonant pattern. Do they all mean peace? No, they don't and you knew it . Read the following:

” Islam and Salam are two incongruous words that share no common ground either in name or in substance.
In order to find the meaning of a certain word in the Arabic dictionary, it is essential to search for the three letter infinitive verb which is called the root. Many words can be derived from the same root, but they don't necessarily have to have any similarity in their meaning. The word Islam, which means ‘submission’, is derived from the infinitive Salama. So is the word Salam which means ‘peace’ and so is the verb Salima which means ‘to be saved or to escape from danger’. One of the derivations of the infinitive Salama means ‘the stinging of a snake’ or ‘The tanning of the leather’. Hence, if the word Islam has something to do with the word Salam i.e. ‘Peace’, does that also mean that it must be related to the ‘stinging of the snake’ or ‘tanning the leather’?

Muhammad used to send letters to the kings and leaders of the surrounding countries and tribes, inviting them to surrender to his authority and to believe in him as the messenger of Allah. He always ended his letters with the following two words: “Aslim, Taslam!”. Although these two words are derived from the same infinitive Salama which is the root of Salam, i.e. ‘Peace’, neither one of them implies the meaning of ‘peace’. The sentence means ‘surrender and you will be safe’, or in other words, ‘surrender or face death’. So where is the meaning of ‘Peace’ in such a religion that threatens to kill other people if they don't submit to it?”
( See Islam and Peace by Bassan Darwitch,Translated from the Arabic.)

One of the weapons of the resistance to Islamic jihad and the taqiyya that its adherents spread is truth. You are obviously not used to that weapon. Welcome to the resistance. You are not an adherent of liberty or truth no matter where it leads but if you stay long enough you may get a grudging respect for it. You may even gain integrity. I usually associate youth with a love for truth, even if there is little knowledge of the same. I conclude that you are prematurely old. I hope the condition is reversible. I believe that it is if despite your lies you continue to think,

No, LQ, Islam – submission and salaam peace are not the same.You knew this because of your ten years of Arabic. You hoped to deceive us. Your argument is essentially that because salaam and Islam have the same consonant clusters, they also share the same meaning. This is very thin. I have only a soupcon of Latin, a smattering of Greek and nearly fluent French. No Arabic at all, and yet your argument seemed absurd.There must be hundred of Arabic words with the same consonant pattern. Do they all mean peace? No, they don't and you knew it . Read the following:

” Islam and Salam are two incongruous words that share no common ground either in name or in substance.
In order to find the meaning of a certain word in the Arabic dictionary, it is essential to search for the three letter infinitive verb which is called the root. Many words can be derived from the same root, but they don't necessarily have to have any similarity in their meaning. The word Islam, which means ‘submission’, is derived from the infinitive Salama. So is the word Salam which means ‘peace’ and so is the verb Salima which means ‘to be saved or to escape from danger’. One of the derivations of the infinitive Salama means ‘the stinging of a snake’ or ‘The tanning of the leather’. Hence, if the word Islam has something to do with the word Salam i.e. ‘Peace’, does that also mean that it must be related to the ‘stinging of the snake’ or ‘tanning the leather’?

Muhammad used to send letters to the kings and leaders of the surrounding countries and tribes, inviting them to surrender to his authority and to believe in him as the messenger of Allah. He always ended his letters with the following two words: “Aslim, Taslam!”. Although these two words are derived from the same infinitive Salama which is the root of Salam, i.e. ‘Peace’, neither one of them implies the meaning of ‘peace’. The sentence means ‘surrender and you will be safe’, or in other words, ‘surrender or face death’. So where is the meaning of ‘Peace’ in such a religion that threatens to kill other people if they don't submit to it?”
( See Islam and Peace by Bassan Darwitch,Translated from the Arabic.)

One of the weapons of the resistance to Islamic jihad and the taqiyya that its adherents spread is truth. You are obviously not used to that weapon. Welcome to the resistance. You are not an adherent of liberty or truth no matter where it leads but if you stay long enough you may get a grudging respect for it. You may even gain integrity. I usually associate youth with a love for truth, even if there is little knowledge of the same. I conclude that you are prematurely old. I hope the condition is reversible. I believe that it is, if, despite your lies, you continue to think.

I have no idea how you manage to match up with “wife beating” and the “Quran” with (Deuteronomy 25:11-15) “When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one drwaeth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her”
This verse has nothing to do with “beatings or wacking wife’s by husbands” and you bring this section with a certain amount of misunderstanding for it’s meaning. This verse’s meaning to Christians is based on Jewish traditions about 2 men having a fight and thus the wife grabs her husbands opposition by the penis with her hands in defence of her own husband being a lesser fighter and therefore brings to the opposing male injury, even penis castration to prevent the opposing male in having children out of vegence and hence her hand is cut off as a punishment. Accordingly, because of the time this is based on, it was seen very extremely important to bear children and she the “wife” had virually ended the other opposing mans ability to procreate. However, were there is a women included in this verse the same punishment would have been given to a man as well in the same situation. This verse is not to be taken as a punishment soley given to women but also applied to men as well. Remember this is a old and ancient law based on the importance of family perpetuation, the begeting of offspring and carrying on the family line. Your use of this phrase is taken out of context for it’s true meaning.

So LQ, are we gods now that we can analyze DNA, artificialy inseminate, create human embryos in test tubes, and clone even human beings? Have you ever considered the possiblilty that an extra-terrestrial race with space travel, and the corresponding technology, could have been on Earth in ancient times? There’s a lot of evidence supporting that theory, have you ever looked at it? Wouldn’t it be easy for someone with an advanced technology to pass themselves off as gods to a man like Mohammed that was spending a lot of time in a cave? Who could not read or write, until Gabriel supposedly forced those abilities on him? Which is harder to believe, that Allah was a spiritual being that intervened directly in himan life through Mohammed, or that a flesh and blood being used technology to pass himself off as a god? Did “God” want us to return to being his slaves as Allah demands, or did a being passing himself as a god, want slaves to do his bidding? Or did Mohammed re-discover an old idea and use it to his advantage by passing himself off as a prophet of Allah, a pagan god he already worshipped? Mohammed became a powerful warlord thanks to this system of “religion” he implemented. And the system he implemented continues to enslave 1.5 billion people and threaten the rest of humanity with death or slavery too.

What evidence? I’d like to look at it.

I recommend begining with the books of Zecharia Sitchin,beginning with “The 12th Planet”, the first book of his Earth Chronicles series. Graham Hancock, Robert Bauval, and Robert Schoch are also good authors and researchers in this area. Eric Von Daniken was the trail blazer in the field, but Sitchin’s reason for looking into the subject had nothing to do with Von Daniken’s. There are many other authors and researchers that have followed their leads.I couldn’t begin to list everything I’ve read on the subject, but Sitchin’s work is the core. The Earth Chronicles alone is seven books, and he has written several others. He passed away on October 9 at the age on 90, by the way. There is a recent new series on History.com called Ancient Aliens that could give you a quick overview in a fairly balanced way. I hope you find the information enlightening.