Exclusive Coverage Of Drs. Sultan, Pipes, And Brook At UCLA Panel Discussion On Islam With Protests [video/pics] *Updated*
April 13th 2007
Image courtesy L.O.G.I.C
IAC Exclusive! On location at UCLA covering the Panel Discussion on “Totalitarian Islam’s Threat to the West”
I decided to covertly attend this discussion at UCLA on Thursday evening with my friend and co-worker Steve. We knew from posts like Jawa’s and LGF’s that it would definitely be an interesting event, with Wafa Sultan, Daniel Pipes and Yaron Brook speaking. Considering the controversial nature of the issue and previous disruptions at Daniel Pipes speeches, we were on the lookout for crazy protesters, or worse, from the many that showed up outside Moore Hall. Living up to expectations, shortly after arriving we saw many protesters handing out ridiculous “Expose Daniel Pipes” brochures, that were obviously pure propaganda handed out by the local Imams’ minions. Although no violence erupted at this event, a small police force was present from start to finish and all members of the discussion panel were wearing bullet proof vests underneath their clothing.
We got there a little early, around 6:45, to make sure we got seats for this popular event. This is what it looked like behind me once we got up to the front. Obviously it was a packed house, and people were streaming in to grab a seat, as soon as someone would leave, long after the discussion began.
This post will be edited later when more video that we took is available, most likely within 24 hrs. Here are a couple pics of what went down, and the video of the protest inside.
From left to right: Yaron Brook, Wafa Sultan, and Daniel Pipes
I must say I am a huge supporter of Dr. Sultan, and was excited most to hear her speak (if you haven’t seen or heard her before, click here and here). I have also known of Daniel Pipes from his blog Danielpipes.org, and was especially curious to hear what he had to say as well. I did not know much about Yaron Brook, however, before checking his Wiki and reading up a little on him. I must say I was very impressed by his articulation, resolve, and clarity among the issue of Totalitarian Islam.
We were expecting the protesters to surface inside after seeing them hassling the line outside, and as predictable as ever they did make a scene. What disgraced us the most was not the Islamic protesters, but even worse….ready for this? The crazy, far left, white woman protester who, with her partner, had two shirts that combined to say “Liar”. All protesters, mostly Muslim, stood up and walked out. Mostly Islamic, that is… there was one crazy lefttard Cindy Sheehan clone who tried to disrupt everything. We had to listen to this idiot rant for far longer than the moderator and security should have allowed. White Americans protesting a panel on Islam…this far left idiocy only exemplifies what the Enemy Within really represents.
As she was escorted out by security to the tune of the crowd chanting “Out! Out! Out!”, she started waiving her arms dramatically while trying to shout over everyone else. People started yelling back at her, to drive her out, as security mildly escorted all the protesters out. I mean, after what happened at UC irvine, is anyone surprised? It was more of a lame, obvious, planned spectacle and everyone in the room was just like, “yea, yea, get it over with already, you idiots…back to the discussion!” There was a large older demographic there that were yelling a lot of things back at the protesters including the chant “out!” as they were escorted from the building.
Here’s the video of the incident. We apologize in advance for the rancidness of this woman’s voice that you will be subjected to (here is an alternate link to the video):
Then this idiot crawls into view… if you look closely at the banner he is holding, it says something about “Don’t Support” and what appears to be (edit - saw this from another angle on a separate video) “Hate Speech”. You can’t see half of the sign because his cohorts chickened out when the crowd started shouting. It should really speak for itself, and give an obvious representation of what these protesters stand for.
With Daniel Pipes:
With Yaron Brook:
It’s late right now, and I will update soon with video and more of an opinion.
*Update* [SistaInfidel]-From a commenter at LGF, here’s proof the “LIar” moonbat was…um…lying: Daniel Pipes appears on al Jazzerah to discuss Bush’s speech.
*Update* [Infidelesto] - We will have more video, you can also see Student of Objectivism comment about the event, and a more in-depth analysis on each speaker posted tonight or tomorrow, so stay tuned!
*Update* [SistaInfidel]-From Students of Objectivism, more links and pics. They also have a post up about what happened at the Daniel Pipes UC Irvine panel here.
Posted by Infidelesto under Infidels, Islam revealed, MUST WATCH, Nuclear Danger, Politics
Daniel Pipes is a Saint for putting up with Vacuum Brained Idiots!
The video is not working for me.
I think the sign meant to spell out “don’t support hate speech”. Now if those same folks would open up a koran and see where the real hate speech originates. . .sigh.
Someone ought to send Evan Sayet’s “Regurgitating the Apple. . .” to the irritating woman, she might learn something.
http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev030507a.cfm
The video isn’t on our server, but Google video, so hopefully its working for most of you (its working fine on our end). We also have it up at Youtube, link to come shortly…
Thanks for sharing the info and the video. It’s always nice to keep a running diary of these twits that broadcast their ignorance because they fear the inevitable, the truth during these discussions. We need more people from the Islamic Community like Wafa Sultan to continue to speak about the perverse hatred that comes from the Koran and the Islamo-Nazis.
Daniel Pipes is among the best - we’re lucky to have him and having the stamina to keep fighting the good fight for us.
the video is up on youtube now, and theres a link to the google one as a backup.
heroyal - i agree ‘hate speech’ probably makes more sense, but from what he was saying as he walked out (something about ‘youre listening to the wrong people’?) i thought it might say ‘white’… there’s a large portion that is unseen… who knows what the crazys are writing these days, but it was definitely not a sign supporting FREE speech. more video footage from the event to come…
I couldn’t quite get the moonbat’s rant, she was saying something about “not being al-jazzerra, but a memory (MEMRI?) program…. and yes, she stayed way too long.
Big-ups to your coverage last night. Our video-coverage of last-night’s insanity is viewable on DemoCast.TV, also, YouTube, and Google. Plus, Saturday we’ll post our coverage of the wing-nut protestors outside, and the one “Daniel” who confronted the mob head-on!
thanks democast… i saw your video too, gives some different shots of the crowd/action than ours does. can’t wait to see the coverage of what went on outside, i didn’t see any of it being inside, just heard the drums and shouting.
Excellent work.
Why am I not surprised at the total and utter stupidity of some people? Way to go Daniel Pipes, Wafa Sultan and Yaron Brook!
What I can’t understand is, when the ignorant bitch stood up and interferred with the right for the guest to speak she also infringed on the rights of all the audience to listen, why didn’t someone stand up and scream in her face as loud as they could, spraying her with the spittle that comes when one is speaking viscousely. I could actually see myself stretching my leg into the aisle so that fucking backward walking bitch could end up finding it and flattening the back of her head on the concrete! I would be glad to help pick her up by her eye sockets and then I would help her to the door while clutching her pancreas in my vicelike grip.
Plastik
Moonbat alert!
[…] Courtesy of Infidels Are Cool: […]
Let me get this straight…they “don’t support hate speech”…did they have to pay to get in?
Just askin…
This report is journalism at its best. You’re right on the scene telling us what, who, when, where and how. Good work.
Campus Forum on Islam and how to handle ‘them’
I found a great article over at LGF today about a panel that was held last night. The panel included Yaron Brook (more quality information on him here), Wafa Sultan (see her famous video here), and Daniel Pipes. Very impressive panel.
wonder woman - no one had to pay to get in, it was free to all and they let in as many from the line as the room would hold… which was alot less than the number of people that showed up. really shows you how these people think. here we have a limited resource: a seat in an event that has way more people wanting to get in than there are seats. the protesters took these seats solely for the purpose of trying to disrupt the event, and ruin it for other people (especially the people that didnt get in). they didnt even stay more than 10 minutes. meanwhile, outside people that were interested and wanted to listen and participate are out in the cold so these jerks can try and make a scene. it really made everyone in there mad.
um, what’s so controversial about a ‘white woman’ shouting this or that? or did you mean to say non-muslim but then slip into some obvious racist overtones?
the banner said…UC’s DONT SUPPORT HATE SPEECH
“um, what’s so controversial about a ‘white woman’ shouting this or that? or did you mean to say non-muslim but then slip into some obvious racist overtones?”
There’s nothing racist about it. I am white myself, and it’s dispicable to see a westernized, white woman, be so idiotic as to defend an ideaology that breeds hatred, control, and ultimately glorifies death. this woman probably didn’t even know the difference, or believes that everyone in the room must be racist because we’re talking about Totalitarian Islam. There’s nothing “racist” about me mentioning she’s white, when in fact, she is…
It’s sad how many Americans are obsessed with any word that might have something to do with race, that it suddenly becomes this whole race issue…Get your head out of your ass and start reading what’s actually going on rather than claiming race.
People who are obsessed with race, miss the entire reason why this post was even put up.
Was this not stopped? Im glad it was. Islam is not an ideology based on ideas but a creed of principles and beliefs. If the message of Allah is considered to exercise dictatorial control enabling us to better ourselves, then Islam should be considered positively totalitarian. Therefore, this is no justification for the likes of Pipes and Sultan to make their fame and fortune through slandering Islam and due to supporting that which is against Islam
no it wasnt stopped. you see, something that you dont understand is that we respect free speech and peace in this country. i know you and the protesters there would have loved to shut everyone else up to impose your will by force, and to spew their/your hateful oppressive message about how you want to enslave the entire world into your religion and you want treat women as whores by marrying them at the age of 6 yrs old and treating them like property for their entire lives. soon enough the world will catch on to how much you lie… and even the moron leftys like the crazy bitch that showed up to protest wont support you anymore. you are the same blogger that threatened death to people who write on their blog about things you dont agree with, i wouldnt think you could possibly understand.
jake-are you offended that he said “woman”, as well? would you only be happy with “person of non-specified gender and race”?
jamal-when you say “if Islam is wrong, I don’t wanna be right” you proving our whole point. you suggest we have no free will, a concept I deepy disagree with. this whole idea of those Muslims who are criticizing Islam being disparaged as “making fame and fortune slandering Islam” is so transparent, and extremely tiresome. your people make the same comments about Ayaan Hirsi Ali. my perspective is that they are successful in their quest to help the peoples of the world see Islam for what it really is.
Recognise that you are mistaken you claim as I Islam as we know it was inorrect, or proven to be, then I would not consider myself a follower/memer of Islam as we know it. The fact is that it cannot be disproven, though many have tried.
Hirsi, Sultan and Pipes may be successful in their quest, particularly amongst non-Muslims who did not belives in Islam anyhow, but this doesnt mean their quest is credible. Therefore they are making their fame and fortune on slander, in a similar vein to how bloggers such as yourselve share your thoughts in cyberspace. Ill take Allah, Prophets from Adam to Muhammad, the Quran and a billion muslims of the words of Hirsi, Sultan and Pipes anyday. They are entitlen to their opinions, but this does not change the actual negativity of what they do.
Using Sultan as a prime example, if she truly believes that the “distorted” religious teachings of Islam prompt young people to commit suicide and that somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs, then why is she not highlighting the distorters AND the distortions. It would have been more accurate for her to say that the Qur’an does not prompt suicide and therefore vulnerable Muslims should be informed of this fact. Instead Wafa Sultan’s intention is that Muslims should be “corrected” until they become non-believers just as she did not believe and “had to leave (Islam)”…and…”look for another god”. She now seeks to prosper by recruiting Muslims and rallying the anti-Muslims with her far-right cry of “Fear Muslims! Fear Arabs! Fear Islam!”. As all the other bigots do (as we see on countless blogs!), she quotes Islamic scriptures on warfare out of context and in isolation to justify her beliefs, just as do the militants to justify their actions, therefore Wafa Sultan and Al Qaeda are alike in distorting the message of Islam.
Evidently, Wafa Sultan distorts the facts in order to fit a politically motivated inaccurate view of Islam. The world is full of good Muslims who understand Islam as a religion of peace. Nevertheless, as with Hirsi and Pipes, Sultan has endeared herself to the anti-Islamist right in the West and secured her healthy book sales and speaking fees from the idiots that go to see her.
http://blogcritics.org/archives/2006/03/21/131003.php
Wafa Sultan is an idiot.
I find it amazing that she has soo much respect for the 10 Commandments, when the guy who “recieved it from God” Moses, ordered his Israelite army to massacre women and children, and rape the virgin girls of Midian.
Dont believe me; check out the Book of Numbers in the Old Testament.
Marcus, your website is gross and so was your comment.
thanks for the links to my site.
I was proud to stand up and leave (unescorted) rather than listen to the hate speech and lies being spouted by Pipes and his racist companions. It is their kind of filthy propaganda that is endangering all of us.
Free Palestine!
you freakin nutcase. unescorted? are you blind as well as dumb? anyone watching the video can see you were shooed out by the entire crowd, and the moderator called for police to escort you.
racist companions? really? wafa sultan is a muslim speaking out against certain muslims that follow islam, and you are calling her racist?
i love how these morons show how stupid they are, so that when i go to show the same about them, half the work is done for me.
palestine? free palestine? lol. look at a map u deranged lunatic. there is no such place. why dont you call out something like… ‘Free the Colonies!!’
lol.
why dont u find a good strict islamic husband so he can beat u and treat u like a slave, apparently its what you want. its better to be a slave than to stand up for your own personal freedoms and rights? better to try to stop people from speaking than allow people to speak as they wish? you are deluded and i seriously hope - for the good of mankind - that you have never breeded.
Now now Sushiman, that’s no way to speak to a lady. A few manners wouldn’t go amiss. Although I am a supporter of free speech, it is a right that should be tempered with decency. Besides name calling is rather childish, don’t you agree?
MHT was bound to receive an unfavorable reception to her comments, most of those who attended the event (such as yourself) have clear Islamophobic tendancies. Do correct me if I am incorrect on that score. So the fact that she was shooed out by a large proportion of the crowd is hardly a surprise, and it cannot be assumed that there is no validity to her arguements from this alone. I wonder what response you would get from a mosque if you went in and said something along the lines of “why dont u find a good strict islamic husband so he can beat u and treat u like a slave, apparently its what you want.”
Finally, despite the fact that it is a little ‘off topic’, whilst the State of Palestine may not have any sovereignty over its claimed territory it is nevertheless a recognised state, I would draw your attention to the following article on Wikithefontofallknowledgepedia(tm) (particular empasis is drawn to the map which shows that most of the nations of the world recognise the state of Palestine)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
I hope that this information is of use to you.
Abbadon,
Thanks for pointing out that map, because it shows clear indication of who our allies are, who the cowards are, and who is not our friend. Palestine is NOT a recognized state in our country (U.S.), so saying “most if the world…” makes no difference to me. The reason the Palestinians have no sovereignty over what they “claim” as their land, is because they can’t stop bombing Israel. Perhaps if they actually sought only “territory”, they would have it by now, through peaceful talks, but the fact is they want to destroy the Jewish people, not just be “in charge”.
A question for you, is anyone who speaks out against Islam considered “Islamophobic”? Is it possible in your mind (and in your culture) that a person can have an opinion and not have a “phobia” about it? I’m certainly not hiding in a corner of my house at night, wringing my hands about Islam.
“Now now Sushiman, that’s no way to speak to a lady. A few manners wouldn’t go amiss. Although I am a supporter of free speech, it is a right that should be tempered with decency. Besides name calling is rather childish, don’t you agree?”
no way to speak to a lady… interesting. she is in effect supporting islamic law and the practices of islam that the speakers like pipes were speaking out against. so this is the way she apparently wants to be treated, and you’re chastising me for calling her crazy. lol @ the hypocrisy of this world.
(these are just a few links from this site, there is a mountain of other stories and documents of the horrific treatment of women in islamic areas/states and anyone living under sharia law)
Palestinian Women Fight Back After 8th ‘Honor Killing’ In One Family
Muslim Leader Blames Women for Sex Attacks
Saudi Gang-Rape Victim Faces 90 Lashes
Islamic Rape Gang Shows No Remorse For Raping Jews In Israel
Sharia Doctrine and ‘Temporary Marriage’ aka Sex Slavery
so i say to you, calling her nuts is a lot better than doing things in the name of ‘honor’ if there is such a thing in islam.
“So the fact that she was shooed out by a large proportion of the crowd is hardly a surprise, and it cannot be assumed that there is no validity to her arguements from this alone.”
- the crowd yelled “OUT!” at her because she was acting like a child, and yea calling people names is childish, but i give back what i get… and she has only shown me that she can throw a tantrum. notice how none of the crowd was yelling “OUT!” to the silent protestors who simply wanted to make a show of their distaste and peacefully exit. (notice how most these silent protesters were muslim, and the one everyone hated from the crowd was the silly white woman, so u can take ur islamophobia comments and…)
the only ones the crowd got on the case of was this wacko and the guy with the sign.
i’m not sure if people understand this yet… but we value freedom of speech in this country, and nothing these people on the stage said violated any law, and was nothing more than the truth and their opinions on those facts. this lady had nothing to say other than “liar”, and was simply trying to stop him from speaking. do you realize how insane that is? she cares so much about what he says and hates him so much that she shows up to try and stop him from talking to… PEOPLE THAT WANT TO LISTEN TO HIM. did she think her screaming like a child was going to get people in the audience to give up their first amendment and go home because she doesnt want us to listen?
instead why doesnt she try to voice her own opinion in a civilized way, an opinion in opposition of these people and let those that have been able to HEAR what people say make a DECISION for THEMSELVES. i dont have a clue what this lady stands for other than she hates Pipes… i dunno maybe they dated and had a bad break up and she tryin to ruin his reputation. how would i know what she is about? she is not trying to contribute or make anything better, she is simply whining and bitching about someone else, not about the issues that are the topic of controversy.
thanks for the info
“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
I hope that this information is of use to you.”
this page, in its first sentence, says that the existence of the state of palestine was proclaimed by a terrorist organization, the plo. and if you click the link for plo, it says that when it was proclaimed (before they changed and added to it, so as to not look like the complete terrorists they are), the only purpose of the state of palestine was to destroy israel.
FREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE PALESTINE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Yo sista, you’re very welcome for the map
As Palestine is a recognised state in many of the nations of the world, it is at least correct from the point of view of the majority of the world to refer to a state of Palestine, you may not like it, but it is a fact. If you bother to read the rest of the article that the map was posted on, you will see that the PLO did actually declare themselves in the 1988 declaration in Algiers. This was recognised as valid by….. well pretty much everyone but the UN. So it is most certainly valid to speak of a state of Palestine.
BTW Sushiman, that same wiki article (the one about the PLO) states that both the UN and ISRAEL itself consider the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As the UN recognises the PLO, then the USA will simply have to lump it. This is notwithstanding the fact that the PLO, or at least elements of the PLO have and probably will engage in acts of terrorism. In the UK we have the IRA, which was once a terrorist organisation, is now a happy go lucky bunch of politicians. Go figure.
so, ahem, free Palestine indeed. But I must say I’m not so caught up on this issue ya know, I say they should do whatever makes people happy, if that involves the liberation of the people of Palestine, then so be it.
Islamophobia is defined as “prejudice against Muslims”. Prejudice is defined as ‘unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.’ When you cross the line of reasonableness then you have become Islamophobic. I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an Islamophobic element that reads IAC. Sushiman, raping and beating of women is no more prevalent in Islamic society than in the west, and showing a bunch of articles giving a few examples of the abuse of women in Islamic society is hardly going to persuade me.
Peace out
THE DIFFERENCE IS THAT IN THE WEST IT IS NOT TOLERATED, IN THE ISLAMIC LAW STATES IT IS THE GOVERNMENT THAT IS EXCUSING PEOPLE THAT DO THIS, AND ARE THE ONES LAYING DOWN THE EXECUTIONS AND BEATINGS.
why the hell cant people THINK before they say something STUPID. there is NO LAW in the united states, OR ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, that PUNISHES A VICTIM OF RAPE BY GIVING THEM LASHINGS!!!!!!!!!!
what the hell is wrong with you??????????????
free palestine indeed… take your fascist propaganda somewhere else… somewhere that people dont think for themselves and blindly follow morons like you.
the palenstinians were offered land, they refused. they were offered coexistance as a state, they refused. dont you get it? when they try to sound legitimate, its so that the UN cannot simply DESTROY THEM. so they lie, and say that they are in it for a free pale….. blah blah fucking blah. all that was added later. AND THE UN IS NAIVE ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THEM. this is only a slight reminder of why the UN is the MOST WORTHLESS ORGANIZATION IN HISTORY!
THE STATE OF PALESTINE WAS DESIGNED, CREATED, AND STILL EXISTS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF KILLING JEWS AND DESTROYING ISRAEL.
DONT BELIEVE THE LIES THEY TELL TO AVOID OBLITERATION.
also, if you look down the list of nations that do recognize the state of palestine, you will see a checklist of countries in the world where the worst human rights violations occur constantly.
seriously abbadon, i dont like making you look like a fool, but if you continue to use my name and come up with completely ridiculous statements like you have so far, i will continue to make u look like the ignorant fool/liar that you are.
MORE FOOLISHNESS OF ABBADON:
“BTW Sushiman, that same wiki article (the one about the PLO) states that both the UN and ISRAEL itself consider the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As the UN recognises the PLO, then the USA will simply have to lump it.”
O RLY? MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED (instead of telling me to read it, which i DID)
let me quote from your precious link:
The proclaimed “State of Palestine” was recognized immediately by the Arab League, and about half the world’s governments recognize it today. It maintains embassies in these countries. The State of Palestine is not recognized by the United Nations…
we are speaking of the state of palestine, not the existence of a group that supposedly represents palestinians… they have been given observer status, and been called ‘legitimate’ to fend off further terrorist attacks. are you seriously trying to advocate the legitimacy of a terrorist organization?
“The PLO was considered “the richest of all terrorist organizations” with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from “donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc.”, according to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report. The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world”
FREE PALESTINE SO THEY CAN MURDER, RAPE, OPPRESS, ENSLAVE, DEAL DRUGS, COMMIT FRAUD ETC WITHOUT ANY SORT OF CONTROL OR MORAL AUTHORITY! YAY! FREE THE TERRORISTS YAY! THEY ARE SUCH GOOD PEOPLE! YAY!
sigh, please set me up again so i can knock you down.
This is the most foolish thing I’ve heard in quite a long time.
“When you cross the line of reasonableness then you have become Islamophobic. ”
How bout…When you cross the line by chanting “Death to America”, “Death to Israel”, by bombing our embassies, blowing up super markets, lobbing mortars into Israel, teaching children to hate/to kill the infidel, oppressing women, demanding submission in the name of Allah, beheading infidels and apostates, subduing societies into 3rd world ideals their whole lives and you don’t think that’s crossing the line of being unreasonable?
Who are the ones being unreasonable?
Ab-
“prejudice” implies a preconceived opinion, but I doubt people you claim to just *know* have “tendencies” towards Islamophobia acquired those opinions out of thin air. It might have something to do with the constant anti-Israel and anti-American sentiment coming out of middle eastern countries, the frequent terrorist activities in the name of Islam, and the terrorist apologists (or at best those who don’t renounce the behavior). Just maybe.
You keep asserting that because a “majority” of the world recognizes a Palestinian state, that I must concede as such as well. What about the fact that the most powerful country in the world does NOT recognize it? It doesn’t sway me that all the Muslim countries and anti-Israel countries recognize it, um… *hello*, and yet you think this is irrefutable evidence.
I don’t think it would make the Israelis “happy” to give the Palestinians territory, since they are run by terrorists, so how can you support a “free Palestine”, if everyone being “happy” is your goal?
Quotation from Sushiman’s post no. 37:
“seriously abbadon, i dont like making you look like a fool, but if you continue to use my name and come up with completely ridiculous statements like you have so far, i will continue to make u look like the ignorant fool/liar that you are.” (sic)
Hmmm, Sushi, it is fair to say that anyone with a triple digit IQ would be capable of determining which of us is a fool from the nature of our posts. You resort to name-calling (something I grew out of whilst I was in primary school), and using capitals for emphasis rather than as a grammatical tool, shouting is rude you know….. So far as the content of our arguments is concerned, you make assumptions which are entirely without justification (see below about your presumption of my support of Sharia law), whereas any assumptions that I might make (though I don’t think I have as of yet made any) have at least some rational basis to them. You haven’t yet managed to argue on the same level as me, you most certainly have yet to demonstrate that any of my arguments are even mildly inaccurate, let alone completely ridiculous. Keep spouting spurious supercilious statements, and I will continue to rebuff your vacuous ‘arguments’.
Anyway, onto the specific issues. Quote (from Sushiman)
“why the hell cant people THINK before they say something STUPID. there is NO LAW in the united states, OR ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, that PUNISHES A VICTIM OF RAPE BY GIVING THEM LASHINGS!!!!!!!!!!
what the hell is wrong with you??????????????”
I have not condoned the treatment of those women, and indeed I have made no mention of their treatment at all, Indeed if you search this web page you will see that I haven’t even used the words rape or woman. I quite agree that Sharia law is fundamentally flawed and I am not advocating Sharia. I actually take offense at the fact that you are accusing me of doing so, I value my liberty every bit as much as you; I am glad that I live in the UK, a secular society.
What you need to remember is that the majority of westernised Muslims (certainly those that I have met) would agree with this. Sure there are those Muslims who are backwards (even those that live in the west), but then there are those who are backwards enough to believe in creationism (the USA for example has a large following of creationism and these are mostly Christian), stupidity is a phenomena which knows no national boundaries.
It might seem unfair to equate the stupidity of believing in creationism with that of supporting Sharia law. However you would be thinking as a secular individual, from which perspective you would not be mistaken (IMHO). I think you may already know this, but I will state it for clarity. What you have to remember is that to devout Muslims faith is everything. They MAY therefore decide that it is not too big a sacrifice to relinquish their rights in order to live in accordance to the teachings of Mohammed, and thereby the will of Allah. They MAY be so indoctrinated that their perception of right and wrong has become warped. In such a situation it would not be unfair to equate a belief in creationism with a desire for Sharia law, the level of delusion required is similar (although admittedly the consequences of Sharia are somewhat more serious than those of creationism!).
I now turn to the Palestine issue, I will, unlike Sushi, provide references to support my arguements, I may not do so particularly well, cos I can’t be arsed, but I will at least have a go. Please note that I refrain from such childish putdowns as “MORE FOOLISHNESS OF SUSHIMAN.”
Try looking at the Palestinian National Covenant (JFGI if you want to find it), I imagine that your first impulse is to refuse to do so, but why don’t you give it a try, if you consider the PLO to be the enemy, then should you not research them? You will then “know thy enemy”. Article 6 states “The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.” So they obviously do not have a problem with Jews living in their territory per se. I wonder how welcoming Israel has been to Palestinians in their territory.
As you have quoted from wiki the financial strength of the PLO I won’t repeat it, I will however point out that the military strength of Israel is based mainly upon support from the USA:
“For many years Israel received US financial and military assistance in a combined total of about $3 billion, divided into $1.2 billion in economic assistance and $1.8 billion in military aid. As the Israeli economy grew, and Soviet-era refugees were absorbed, the need for the aid package decreased.” This is not to mention the $65 million that was given to Israel in 1951 now worth over $500 million (I used a generic inflation calculator to figure that out).
(http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_1991to_now_israel_us_support.php)
Then you have to ask what other funding Israel has received. They are a suspected nuclear power for goodness sake, this against the quite pitiful power of the PLO whose wealth amounts to $50 odd billion! With this considerable funding Israel has since the partition annexed a further 26% of the territory that previously belonged to the Arabic community of the region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine
Israel has committed acts tantamount to terrorism, as they deliberately targeted non-combatants. Now I must point out that I do not consider this (or anything for that matter) to be an excuse for terrorist acts by the PLO, but then I am a bit of a pacifist, some might argue “give as good as you get”.
Sushi, you may say that “the palenstinians were offered land, they refused, they were offered coexistance as a state, they refused,” however the offer the Palestinians were given was to give away a large portion of land that was actually theirs in the first place, DID YOU NOT KNOW THIS?. Please look at the wiki article about Palestine, you might learn something. The state of Palestine may never have held sovereignty of their own territory, but Palestine itself has. How would you react if a large number of, hmmm, let’s say Muslims, emigrated to the USA. Then over the passage of many years the Muslim contingent say, “we want our own part of the USA, we want the west half!” I’m sure that you would not agree to that yourselves (try to persuade me otherwise). So although they were given an offer, it was an offer they could not accept! Indeed given this situation, of course they want to destroy Israel, it is a nation that is built on Palestinian soil.
Again Sushi, sorry to shoot you down so completely and comprehensively, but you appear to have forgotten who actually brought up the issue of the PLO. See your post 35. You were disputing the legitimacy of the PLO to proclaim the existence of the state of Palestine. I have simply pointed out that even the USA recognise that the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, the, and therefore the declaration was valid
Sista, America does no recognize the state of Palestine, ok, thanks for pointing that out. This is less significant than you seem to think, you state that America is the most powerful nation in the world? Yes, but not by as much as you might think, and perhaps not for as long as you think either. Let’s talk about population, compare the population of the areas of the world that do recognize the State of Palestine to those that don’t, I don’t know the numbers, but I’d say they are definitely on the side of those nations that do. Then there is the fact that China, Russia (and indeed all of the former USSR), Japan and many, many more non, or at least predominantly non-Muslim nations recognize the State of Palestine, so let’s not make this a religious issue, huh?
And no shit that many of the non-Muslim nations that recognize the State of Palestine are anti-Israeli, it’s kind of an either or situation. Either you consider the establishment of Israel to be “theft” of land that rightfully belongs to Palestine, or alternatively you agree with the establishment of Israel in Palestine, there is no room for compromise here.
BTW Infidelesto, Sure there is prejudice against the western world by some Muslims, I do not dispute this and this prejudice is of course unreasonable in and of itself. But this does not excuse an Islamophobic response, which is by definition unreasonable. So really your own post was in its entirety foolish, huh, wasn’t it? Silly boy.
Anyway, that was a bit long, sorry about that, but I did have three posts to reply to. Soooo, round three, DING
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