Exclusive Coverage Of Drs. Sultan, Pipes, And Brook At UCLA Panel Discussion On Islam With Protests [video/pics] *Updated*

by Infidelesto on April 13, 2007 · 86 comments

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Image courtesy L.O.G.I.C

IAC Exclusive! On location at UCLA covering the Panel Discussion on “Totalitarian Islam’s Threat to the West”

I decided to covertly attend this discussion at UCLA on Thursday evening with my friend and co-worker Steve. We knew from posts like Jawa’s and LGF’s that it would definitely be an interesting event, with Wafa Sultan, Daniel Pipes and Yaron Brook speaking. Considering the controversial nature of the issue and previous disruptions at Daniel Pipes speeches, we were on the lookout for crazy protesters, or worse, from the many that showed up outside Moore Hall. Living up to expectations, shortly after arriving we saw many protesters handing out ridiculous “Expose Daniel Pipes” brochures, that were obviously pure propaganda handed out by the local Imams’ minions. Although no violence erupted at this event, a small police force was present from start to finish and all members of the discussion panel were wearing bullet proof vests underneath their clothing.

We got there a little early, around 6:45, to make sure we got seats for this popular event. This is what it looked like behind me once we got up to the front. Obviously it was a packed house, and people were streaming in to grab a seat, as soon as someone would leave, long after the discussion began.


This post will be edited later when more video that we took is available, most likely within 24 hrs. Here are a couple pics of what went down, and the video of the protest inside.

From left to right: Yaron Brook, Wafa Sultan, and Daniel Pipes


I must say I am a huge supporter of Dr. Sultan, and was excited most to hear her speak (if you haven’t seen or heard her before, click here and here). I have also known of Daniel Pipes from his blog Danielpipes.org, and was especially curious to hear what he had to say as well. I did not know much about Yaron Brook, however, before checking his Wiki and reading up a little on him. I must say I was very impressed by his articulation, resolve, and clarity among the issue of Totalitarian Islam.

We were expecting the protesters to surface inside after seeing them hassling the line outside, and as predictable as ever they did make a scene. What disgraced us the most was not the Islamic protesters, but even worse….ready for this? The crazy, far left, white woman protester who, with her partner, had two shirts that combined to say “Liar”. All protesters, mostly Muslim, stood up and walked out. Mostly Islamic, that is… there was one crazy lefttard Cindy Sheehan clone who tried to disrupt everything. We had to listen to this idiot rant for far longer than the moderator and security should have allowed. White Americans protesting a panel on Islam…this far left idiocy only exemplifies what the Enemy Within really represents.


As she was escorted out by security to the tune of the crowd chanting “Out! Out! Out!”, she started waiving her arms dramatically while trying to shout over everyone else. People started yelling back at her, to drive her out, as security mildly escorted all the protesters out. I mean, after what happened at UC irvine, is anyone surprised? It was more of a lame, obvious, planned spectacle and everyone in the room was just like, “yea, yea, get it over with already, you idiots…back to the discussion!” There was a large older demographic there that were yelling a lot of things back at the protesters including the chant “out!” as they were escorted from the building.

Here’s the video of the incident. We apologize in advance for the rancidness of this woman’s voice that you will be subjected to (here is an alternate link to the video):

Then this idiot crawls into view… if you look closely at the banner he is holding, it says something about “Don’t Support” and what appears to be (edit – saw this from another angle on a separate video) “Hate Speech”. You can’t see half of the sign because his cohorts chickened out when the crowd started shouting. It should really speak for itself, and give an obvious representation of what these protesters stand for.


With Daniel Pipes:


With Yaron Brook:


It’s late right now, and I will update soon with video and more of an opinion.

*Update* [SistaInfidel]-From a commenter at LGF, here’s proof the “LIar” moonbat was…um…lying: Daniel Pipes appears on al Jazzerah to discuss Bush’s speech.

*Update* [Infidelesto] – We will have more video, you can also see Student of Objectivism comment about the event, and a more in-depth analysis on each speaker posted tonight or tomorrow, so stay tuned!

*Update* [SistaInfidel]-From Students of Objectivism, more links and pics. They also have a post up about what happened at the Daniel Pipes UC Irvine panel here.

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  5. Another Discussion With A Moderate Muslim
  • sheila pickerill

    Daniel Pipes is a Saint for putting up with Vacuum Brained Idiots!

  • Ringo the Gringo

    The video is not working for me.

  • heroyalwhyness

    I think the sign meant to spell out “don’t support hate speech”. Now if those same folks would open up a koran and see where the real hate speech originates. . .sigh.

    Someone ought to send Evan Sayet’s “Regurgitating the Apple. . .” to the irritating woman, she might learn something.

  • Sistainfidel

    The video isn’t on our server, but Google video, so hopefully its working for most of you (its working fine on our end). We also have it up at Youtube, link to come shortly…

  • Yiddish Steel

    Thanks for sharing the info and the video. It’s always nice to keep a running diary of these twits that broadcast their ignorance because they fear the inevitable, the truth during these discussions. We need more people from the Islamic Community like Wafa Sultan to continue to speak about the perverse hatred that comes from the Koran and the Islamo-Nazis.

  • coffee-trader

    Daniel Pipes is among the best – we’re lucky to have him and having the stamina to keep fighting the good fight for us.

  • sushiman

    the video is up on youtube now, and theres a link to the google one as a backup.

    heroyal – i agree ‘hate speech’ probably makes more sense, but from what he was saying as he walked out (something about ‘youre listening to the wrong people’?) i thought it might say ‘white’… there’s a large portion that is unseen… who knows what the crazys are writing these days, but it was definitely not a sign supporting FREE speech. more video footage from the event to come…

  • happy-infidel

    I couldn’t quite get the moonbat’s rant, she was saying something about “not being al-jazzerra, but a memory (MEMRI?) program…. and yes, she stayed way too long.

  • http://www.democast.tv DemoCast

    Big-ups to your coverage last night. Our video-coverage of last-night’s insanity is viewable on DemoCast.TV, also, YouTube, and Google. Plus, Saturday we’ll post our coverage of the wing-nut protestors outside, and the one “Daniel” who confronted the mob head-on!

  • sushiman

    thanks democast… i saw your video too, gives some different shots of the crowd/action than ours does. can’t wait to see the coverage of what went on outside, i didn’t see any of it being inside, just heard the drums and shouting.

  • http://www.christophercalandro.com Christopher Calandro

    Excellent work.

  • http://www.geocities.com/sffilk Michael

    Why am I not surprised at the total and utter stupidity of some people? Way to go Daniel Pipes, Wafa Sultan and Yaron Brook!

  • Plastik

    What I can’t understand is, when the ignorant bitch stood up and interferred with the right for the guest to speak she also infringed on the rights of all the audience to listen, why didn’t someone stand up and scream in her face as loud as they could, spraying her with the spittle that comes when one is speaking viscousely. I could actually see myself stretching my leg into the aisle so that fucking backward walking bitch could end up finding it and flattening the back of her head on the concrete! I would be glad to help pick her up by her eye sockets and then I would help her to the door while clutching her pancreas in my vicelike grip.


    • chris

      ahhh….a moderate I see……

  • Mats

    Moonbat alert!

  • Pingback: NoisyRoom.net » Blog Archive » Exclusive Coverage Of Drs. Sultan, Pipes, And Brook At UCLA Panel Discussion On Islam With Protests [video/pics] *Updated*

  • http://www.lassooftruth.com Wonder Woman

    Let me get this straight…they “don’t support hate speech”…did they have to pay to get in?

    Just askin…

  • paterinfidel

    This report is journalism at its best. You’re right on the scene telling us what, who, when, where and how. Good work.

  • Pingback: My Newz 'n Ideas

  • sushiman

    wonder woman – no one had to pay to get in, it was free to all and they let in as many from the line as the room would hold… which was alot less than the number of people that showed up. really shows you how these people think. here we have a limited resource: a seat in an event that has way more people wanting to get in than there are seats. the protesters took these seats solely for the purpose of trying to disrupt the event, and ruin it for other people (especially the people that didnt get in). they didnt even stay more than 10 minutes. meanwhile, outside people that were interested and wanted to listen and participate are out in the cold so these jerks can try and make a scene. it really made everyone in there mad.

  • jake

    um, what’s so controversial about a ‘white woman’ shouting this or that? or did you mean to say non-muslim but then slip into some obvious racist overtones?

  • bruin

    the banner said…UC’s DONT SUPPORT HATE SPEECH

  • Infidelesto

    “um, what’s so controversial about a ‘white woman’ shouting this or that? or did you mean to say non-muslim but then slip into some obvious racist overtones?”

    There’s nothing racist about it. I am white myself, and it’s dispicable to see a westernized, white woman, be so idiotic as to defend an ideaology that breeds hatred, control, and ultimately glorifies death. this woman probably didn’t even know the difference, or believes that everyone in the room must be racist because we’re talking about Totalitarian Islam. There’s nothing “racist” about me mentioning she’s white, when in fact, she is…

    It’s sad how many Americans are obsessed with any word that might have something to do with race, that it suddenly becomes this whole race issue…Get your head out of your ass and start reading what’s actually going on rather than claiming race.

    People who are obsessed with race, miss the entire reason why this post was even put up.

    • chris

      Obviously there is something racist about what you said – the idea tha a white woman (ie; her race) should adopt an Islamic totalitarian ideology. You are talking about totalitarian Islam in relation to her race. Just stick to talking about ideology – rae hasnt reallyaything to do with it since there are white Muslims – so its irrelevant

      • SirWilhelm

        And you don’t read any better than you write.

  • http://radicalmuslim.blogsome.com/2007/04/12/there-is-no-totalitarian-islam-there-is-no-threat-to-the-west/ jamal

    Was this not stopped? Im glad it was. Islam is not an ideology based on ideas but a creed of principles and beliefs. If the message of Allah is considered to exercise dictatorial control enabling us to better ourselves, then Islam should be considered positively totalitarian. Therefore, this is no justification for the likes of Pipes and Sultan to make their fame and fortune through slandering Islam and due to supporting that which is against Islam

    • chris

      Islam IS a ideology based on ideas. Prnciples and beliefs are ideas. You need to get an education.

      • SirWilhelm

        Who’s ideas? Allah’s, or Mohammed’s? If you say Allah, prove he exists. If you say Mohammed, then you are following the ideas of a murdering, rapisng, caravan robbing, child molesting, warlord. It’s no coincidence that the actions of most Muslims emulate those of Mohammed, is it?

      • Kal_El

        Speak for yourself on education, considering how poorly you type. Islam is AN ideology based on LIES. Also, try spell check, it’s correctly spelled principles.

  • sushiman

    no it wasnt stopped. you see, something that you dont understand is that we respect free speech and peace in this country. i know you and the protesters there would have loved to shut everyone else up to impose your will by force, and to spew their/your hateful oppressive message about how you want to enslave the entire world into your religion and you want treat women as whores by marrying them at the age of 6 yrs old and treating them like property for their entire lives. soon enough the world will catch on to how much you lie… and even the moron leftys like the crazy bitch that showed up to protest wont support you anymore. you are the same blogger that threatened death to people who write on their blog about things you dont agree with, i wouldnt think you could possibly understand.

  • Sistainfidel

    jake-are you offended that he said “woman”, as well? would you only be happy with “person of non-specified gender and race”?

    jamal-when you say “if Islam is wrong, I don’t wanna be right” you proving our whole point. you suggest we have no free will, a concept I deepy disagree with. this whole idea of those Muslims who are criticizing Islam being disparaged as “making fame and fortune slandering Islam” is so transparent, and extremely tiresome. your people make the same comments about Ayaan Hirsi Ali. my perspective is that they are successful in their quest to help the peoples of the world see Islam for what it really is.

  • http://radicalmuslim.blogsome.com/ jamal

    Recognise that you are mistaken you claim as I Islam as we know it was inorrect, or proven to be, then I would not consider myself a follower/memer of Islam as we know it. The fact is that it cannot be disproven, though many have tried.

    Hirsi, Sultan and Pipes may be successful in their quest, particularly amongst non-Muslims who did not belives in Islam anyhow, but this doesnt mean their quest is credible. Therefore they are making their fame and fortune on slander, in a similar vein to how bloggers such as yourselve share your thoughts in cyberspace. Ill take Allah, Prophets from Adam to Muhammad, the Quran and a billion muslims of the words of Hirsi, Sultan and Pipes anyday. They are entitlen to their opinions, but this does not change the actual negativity of what they do.

    Using Sultan as a prime example, if she truly believes that the “distorted” religious teachings of Islam prompt young people to commit suicide and that somebody has to help free the Muslim people from these wrong beliefs, then why is she not highlighting the distorters AND the distortions. It would have been more accurate for her to say that the Qur’an does not prompt suicide and therefore vulnerable Muslims should be informed of this fact. Instead Wafa Sultan’s intention is that Muslims should be “corrected” until they become non-believers just as she did not believe and “had to leave (Islam)”…and…”look for another god”. She now seeks to prosper by recruiting Muslims and rallying the anti-Muslims with her far-right cry of “Fear Muslims! Fear Arabs! Fear Islam!”. As all the other bigots do (as we see on countless blogs!), she quotes Islamic scriptures on warfare out of context and in isolation to justify her beliefs, just as do the militants to justify their actions, therefore Wafa Sultan and Al Qaeda are alike in distorting the message of Islam.

    Evidently, Wafa Sultan distorts the facts in order to fit a politically motivated inaccurate view of Islam. The world is full of good Muslims who understand Islam as a religion of peace. Nevertheless, as with Hirsi and Pipes, Sultan has endeared herself to the anti-Islamist right in the West and secured her healthy book sales and speaking fees from the idiots that go to see her.


  • http://www.jewwatch.com Marcus

    Wafa Sultan is an idiot.

    I find it amazing that she has soo much respect for the 10 Commandments, when the guy who “recieved it from God” Moses, ordered his Israelite army to massacre women and children, and rape the virgin girls of Midian.

    Dont believe me; check out the Book of Numbers in the Old Testament.

  • Sistainfidel

    Marcus, your website is gross and so was your comment.

  • http://studentofobjectivism.blogspot.com/ Student of Objectivism

    thanks for the links to my site.

  • mary hughes thompson

    I was proud to stand up and leave (unescorted) rather than listen to the hate speech and lies being spouted by Pipes and his racist companions. It is their kind of filthy propaganda that is endangering all of us.

    Free Palestine!

  • sushiman

    you freakin nutcase. unescorted? are you blind as well as dumb? anyone watching the video can see you were shooed out by the entire crowd, and the moderator called for police to escort you.

    racist companions? really? wafa sultan is a muslim speaking out against certain muslims that follow islam, and you are calling her racist?

    i love how these morons show how stupid they are, so that when i go to show the same about them, half the work is done for me.

    palestine? free palestine? lol. look at a map u deranged lunatic. there is no such place. why dont you call out something like… ‘Free the Colonies!!’


    why dont u find a good strict islamic husband so he can beat u and treat u like a slave, apparently its what you want. its better to be a slave than to stand up for your own personal freedoms and rights? better to try to stop people from speaking than allow people to speak as they wish? you are deluded and i seriously hope – for the good of mankind – that you have never breeded.

    • chris

      hate hate hate hate

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Now now Sushiman, that’s no way to speak to a lady. A few manners wouldn’t go amiss. Although I am a supporter of free speech, it is a right that should be tempered with decency. Besides name calling is rather childish, don’t you agree?

    MHT was bound to receive an unfavorable reception to her comments, most of those who attended the event (such as yourself) have clear Islamophobic tendancies. Do correct me if I am incorrect on that score. So the fact that she was shooed out by a large proportion of the crowd is hardly a surprise, and it cannot be assumed that there is no validity to her arguements from this alone. I wonder what response you would get from a mosque if you went in and said something along the lines of “why dont u find a good strict islamic husband so he can beat u and treat u like a slave, apparently its what you want.”

    Finally, despite the fact that it is a little ‘off topic’, whilst the State of Palestine may not have any sovereignty over its claimed territory it is nevertheless a recognised state, I would draw your attention to the following article on Wikithefontofallknowledgepedia(tm) (particular empasis is drawn to the map which shows that most of the nations of the world recognise the state of Palestine)


    I hope that this information is of use to you.

  • Sistainfidel


    Thanks for pointing out that map, because it shows clear indication of who our allies are, who the cowards are, and who is not our friend. Palestine is NOT a recognized state in our country (U.S.), so saying “most if the world…” makes no difference to me. The reason the Palestinians have no sovereignty over what they “claim” as their land, is because they can’t stop bombing Israel. Perhaps if they actually sought only “territory”, they would have it by now, through peaceful talks, but the fact is they want to destroy the Jewish people, not just be “in charge”.

    A question for you, is anyone who speaks out against Islam considered “Islamophobic”? Is it possible in your mind (and in your culture) that a person can have an opinion and not have a “phobia” about it? I’m certainly not hiding in a corner of my house at night, wringing my hands about Islam.

  • sushiman

    “Now now Sushiman, that’s no way to speak to a lady. A few manners wouldn’t go amiss. Although I am a supporter of free speech, it is a right that should be tempered with decency. Besides name calling is rather childish, don’t you agree?”

    no way to speak to a lady… interesting. she is in effect supporting islamic law and the practices of islam that the speakers like pipes were speaking out against. so this is the way she apparently wants to be treated, and you’re chastising me for calling her crazy. lol @ the hypocrisy of this world.

    (these are just a few links from this site, there is a mountain of other stories and documents of the horrific treatment of women in islamic areas/states and anyone living under sharia law)

    Palestinian Women Fight Back After 8th ‘Honor Killing’ In One Family

    Muslim Leader Blames Women for Sex Attacks

    Saudi Gang-Rape Victim Faces 90 Lashes

    Islamic Rape Gang Shows No Remorse For Raping Jews In Israel

    Sharia Doctrine and ‘Temporary Marriage’ aka Sex Slavery

    so i say to you, calling her nuts is a lot better than doing things in the name of ‘honor’ if there is such a thing in islam.

    “So the fact that she was shooed out by a large proportion of the crowd is hardly a surprise, and it cannot be assumed that there is no validity to her arguements from this alone.”

    - the crowd yelled “OUT!” at her because she was acting like a child, and yea calling people names is childish, but i give back what i get… and she has only shown me that she can throw a tantrum. notice how none of the crowd was yelling “OUT!” to the silent protestors who simply wanted to make a show of their distaste and peacefully exit. (notice how most these silent protesters were muslim, and the one everyone hated from the crowd was the silly white woman, so u can take ur islamophobia comments and…)

    the only ones the crowd got on the case of was this wacko and the guy with the sign.

    i’m not sure if people understand this yet… but we value freedom of speech in this country, and nothing these people on the stage said violated any law, and was nothing more than the truth and their opinions on those facts. this lady had nothing to say other than “liar”, and was simply trying to stop him from speaking. do you realize how insane that is? she cares so much about what he says and hates him so much that she shows up to try and stop him from talking to… PEOPLE THAT WANT TO LISTEN TO HIM. did she think her screaming like a child was going to get people in the audience to give up their first amendment and go home because she doesnt want us to listen?

    instead why doesnt she try to voice her own opinion in a civilized way, an opinion in opposition of these people and let those that have been able to HEAR what people say make a DECISION for THEMSELVES. i dont have a clue what this lady stands for other than she hates Pipes… i dunno maybe they dated and had a bad break up and she tryin to ruin his reputation. how would i know what she is about? she is not trying to contribute or make anything better, she is simply whining and bitching about someone else, not about the issues that are the topic of controversy.

  • sushiman

    thanks for the info

    I hope that this information is of use to you.”

    this page, in its first sentence, says that the existence of the state of palestine was proclaimed by a terrorist organization, the plo. and if you click the link for plo, it says that when it was proclaimed (before they changed and added to it, so as to not look like the complete terrorists they are), the only purpose of the state of palestine was to destroy israel.


  • Abbadon Satanson

    Yo sista, you’re very welcome for the map :P

    As Palestine is a recognised state in many of the nations of the world, it is at least correct from the point of view of the majority of the world to refer to a state of Palestine, you may not like it, but it is a fact. If you bother to read the rest of the article that the map was posted on, you will see that the PLO did actually declare themselves in the 1988 declaration in Algiers. This was recognised as valid by….. well pretty much everyone but the UN. So it is most certainly valid to speak of a state of Palestine.

    BTW Sushiman, that same wiki article (the one about the PLO) states that both the UN and ISRAEL itself consider the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As the UN recognises the PLO, then the USA will simply have to lump it. This is notwithstanding the fact that the PLO, or at least elements of the PLO have and probably will engage in acts of terrorism. In the UK we have the IRA, which was once a terrorist organisation, is now a happy go lucky bunch of politicians. Go figure.

    so, ahem, free Palestine indeed. But I must say I’m not so caught up on this issue ya know, I say they should do whatever makes people happy, if that involves the liberation of the people of Palestine, then so be it.

    Islamophobia is defined as “prejudice against Muslims”. Prejudice is defined as ‘unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes, esp. of a hostile nature, regarding a racial, religious, or national group.’ When you cross the line of reasonableness then you have become Islamophobic. I don’t know about you but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is an Islamophobic element that reads IAC. Sushiman, raping and beating of women is no more prevalent in Islamic society than in the west, and showing a bunch of articles giving a few examples of the abuse of women in Islamic society is hardly going to persuade me.

    Peace out

  • sushiman


    why the hell cant people THINK before they say something STUPID. there is NO LAW in the united states, OR ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, that PUNISHES A VICTIM OF RAPE BY GIVING THEM LASHINGS!!!!!!!!!!

    what the hell is wrong with you??????????????

    free palestine indeed… take your fascist propaganda somewhere else… somewhere that people dont think for themselves and blindly follow morons like you.

    the palenstinians were offered land, they refused. they were offered coexistance as a state, they refused. dont you get it? when they try to sound legitimate, its so that the UN cannot simply DESTROY THEM. so they lie, and say that they are in it for a free pale….. blah blah fucking blah. all that was added later. AND THE UN IS NAIVE ENOUGH TO BELIEVE THEM. this is only a slight reminder of why the UN is the MOST WORTHLESS ORGANIZATION IN HISTORY!



    also, if you look down the list of nations that do recognize the state of palestine, you will see a checklist of countries in the world where the worst human rights violations occur constantly.

    seriously abbadon, i dont like making you look like a fool, but if you continue to use my name and come up with completely ridiculous statements like you have so far, i will continue to make u look like the ignorant fool/liar that you are.


    “BTW Sushiman, that same wiki article (the one about the PLO) states that both the UN and ISRAEL itself consider the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people. As the UN recognises the PLO, then the USA will simply have to lump it.”

    O RLY? MAYBE YOU SHOULD READ THE ARTICLE YOU LINKED (instead of telling me to read it, which i DID)

    let me quote from your precious link:

    The proclaimed “State of Palestine” was recognized immediately by the Arab League, and about half the world’s governments recognize it today. It maintains embassies in these countries. The State of Palestine is not recognized by the United Nations…

    we are speaking of the state of palestine, not the existence of a group that supposedly represents palestinians… they have been given observer status, and been called ‘legitimate’ to fend off further terrorist attacks. are you seriously trying to advocate the legitimacy of a terrorist organization?

    “The PLO was considered “the richest of all terrorist organizations” with $8-$10 billion in assets and an annual income of $1.5-$2 billion from “donations, extortion, payoffs, illegal arms dealing, drug trafficking, money laundering, fraud, etc.”, according to a 1993 National Criminal Intelligence Service report. The Daily Telegraph reported in 1999 that the PLO had $50 billion in secret investments around the world”


    sigh, please set me up again so i can knock you down.

  • Infidelesto

    This is the most foolish thing I’ve heard in quite a long time.

    “When you cross the line of reasonableness then you have become Islamophobic. ”

    How bout…When you cross the line by chanting “Death to America”, “Death to Israel”, by bombing our embassies, blowing up super markets, lobbing mortars into Israel, teaching children to hate/to kill the infidel, oppressing women, demanding submission in the name of Allah, beheading infidels and apostates, subduing societies into 3rd world ideals their whole lives and you don’t think that’s crossing the line of being unreasonable?

    Who are the ones being unreasonable?

    • chris

      Yet another foolish argument from Infidelestro.

      How bout this Infidelstro. The idea is that people have their own religion. They are reasonable tolerant people – hence the quote you used..
      When they become unreasonable they become bigots. Being a bigot means that you become partisan. You take one side. There are Islamic extremists. There are Christian extremists. There are secular exremists. Merely claiming that there are acts of terror from one side means you are supporting your own prejudice and bigotry.

      • SirWilhelm

        One problem chris, is that Islam is not a religion. It’s a militaristic politcal organization disgused as a religion. All the examples that Infidelesto lists, are glaring examples of the intolerance in Islam, from the majority of it’s members, not just from extremists. He’s not merely claiming there are more acts of terror from Islam, this site has articles on dozens, if not hundreds, of acts of terror by Muslims, there is no comparison between that, and the few acts of terrorism by any other racial, ethnic, or religious group. If you can prove otherwise, be my guest. It’s not prejudice or bigotry, when there is evidence for what you claim.

      • Kal_El

        How is claiming something that is a KNOWN, CONCRETE, PROVABLE FACT bigotry? I have yet to see Christian, or secular extremists fly airplanes into buildings, or chop off the heads of civilians while chanting Jesus Saves…

      • SirWilhelm

        There is no one more bigoted than Muslims, they still kill homosexuals, just for being homosexuals, if that’s not bigotry, what is? Is that tolerance? And talk about hypocrisy, they think having sex with a woman is an evil necessity, while having sex with a male is ok, as long as they don’t fall in “love”. To them, a man being in “love” with another man is homosexuality, but sex is ok! And that’s all part of their religion and the “culture” that results, and that they want to impose on the whole world. If you can’t see the problem with that, you are as bad as they are.

  • Sistainfidel


    “prejudice” implies a preconceived opinion, but I doubt people you claim to just *know* have “tendencies” towards Islamophobia acquired those opinions out of thin air. It might have something to do with the constant anti-Israel and anti-American sentiment coming out of middle eastern countries, the frequent terrorist activities in the name of Islam, and the terrorist apologists (or at best those who don’t renounce the behavior). Just maybe.

    You keep asserting that because a “majority” of the world recognizes a Palestinian state, that I must concede as such as well. What about the fact that the most powerful country in the world does NOT recognize it? It doesn’t sway me that all the Muslim countries and anti-Israel countries recognize it, um… *hello*, and yet you think this is irrefutable evidence.

    I don’t think it would make the Israelis “happy” to give the Palestinians territory, since they are run by terrorists, so how can you support a “free Palestine”, if everyone being “happy” is your goal?

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Quotation from Sushiman’s post no. 37:

    “seriously abbadon, i dont like making you look like a fool, but if you continue to use my name and come up with completely ridiculous statements like you have so far, i will continue to make u look like the ignorant fool/liar that you are.” (sic)

    Hmmm, Sushi, it is fair to say that anyone with a triple digit IQ would be capable of determining which of us is a fool from the nature of our posts. You resort to name-calling (something I grew out of whilst I was in primary school), and using capitals for emphasis rather than as a grammatical tool, shouting is rude you know….. So far as the content of our arguments is concerned, you make assumptions which are entirely without justification (see below about your presumption of my support of Sharia law), whereas any assumptions that I might make (though I don’t think I have as of yet made any) have at least some rational basis to them. You haven’t yet managed to argue on the same level as me, you most certainly have yet to demonstrate that any of my arguments are even mildly inaccurate, let alone completely ridiculous. Keep spouting spurious supercilious statements, and I will continue to rebuff your vacuous ‘arguments’.

    Anyway, onto the specific issues. Quote (from Sushiman)

    “why the hell cant people THINK before they say something STUPID. there is NO LAW in the united states, OR ANY CIVILIZED COUNTRY IN THE WORLD, that PUNISHES A VICTIM OF RAPE BY GIVING THEM LASHINGS!!!!!!!!!!

    what the hell is wrong with you??????????????”

    I have not condoned the treatment of those women, and indeed I have made no mention of their treatment at all, Indeed if you search this web page you will see that I haven’t even used the words rape or woman. I quite agree that Sharia law is fundamentally flawed and I am not advocating Sharia. I actually take offense at the fact that you are accusing me of doing so, I value my liberty every bit as much as you; I am glad that I live in the UK, a secular society.

    What you need to remember is that the majority of westernised Muslims (certainly those that I have met) would agree with this. Sure there are those Muslims who are backwards (even those that live in the west), but then there are those who are backwards enough to believe in creationism (the USA for example has a large following of creationism and these are mostly Christian), stupidity is a phenomena which knows no national boundaries.

    It might seem unfair to equate the stupidity of believing in creationism with that of supporting Sharia law. However you would be thinking as a secular individual, from which perspective you would not be mistaken (IMHO). I think you may already know this, but I will state it for clarity. What you have to remember is that to devout Muslims faith is everything. They MAY therefore decide that it is not too big a sacrifice to relinquish their rights in order to live in accordance to the teachings of Mohammed, and thereby the will of Allah. They MAY be so indoctrinated that their perception of right and wrong has become warped. In such a situation it would not be unfair to equate a belief in creationism with a desire for Sharia law, the level of delusion required is similar (although admittedly the consequences of Sharia are somewhat more serious than those of creationism!).

    I now turn to the Palestine issue, I will, unlike Sushi, provide references to support my arguements, I may not do so particularly well, cos I can’t be arsed, but I will at least have a go. Please note that I refrain from such childish putdowns as “MORE FOOLISHNESS OF SUSHIMAN.”

    Try looking at the Palestinian National Covenant (JFGI if you want to find it), I imagine that your first impulse is to refuse to do so, but why don’t you give it a try, if you consider the PLO to be the enemy, then should you not research them? You will then “know thy enemy”. Article 6 states “The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.” So they obviously do not have a problem with Jews living in their territory per se. I wonder how welcoming Israel has been to Palestinians in their territory.

    As you have quoted from wiki the financial strength of the PLO I won’t repeat it, I will however point out that the military strength of Israel is based mainly upon support from the USA:
    “For many years Israel received US financial and military assistance in a combined total of about $3 billion, divided into $1.2 billion in economic assistance and $1.8 billion in military aid. As the Israeli economy grew, and Soviet-era refugees were absorbed, the need for the aid package decreased.” This is not to mention the $65 million that was given to Israel in 1951 now worth over $500 million (I used a generic inflation calculator to figure that out).

    Then you have to ask what other funding Israel has received. They are a suspected nuclear power for goodness sake, this against the quite pitiful power of the PLO whose wealth amounts to $50 odd billion! With this considerable funding Israel has since the partition annexed a further 26% of the territory that previously belonged to the Arabic community of the region. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine

    Israel has committed acts tantamount to terrorism, as they deliberately targeted non-combatants. Now I must point out that I do not consider this (or anything for that matter) to be an excuse for terrorist acts by the PLO, but then I am a bit of a pacifist, some might argue “give as good as you get”.

    Sushi, you may say that “the palenstinians were offered land, they refused, they were offered coexistance as a state, they refused,” however the offer the Palestinians were given was to give away a large portion of land that was actually theirs in the first place, DID YOU NOT KNOW THIS?. Please look at the wiki article about Palestine, you might learn something. The state of Palestine may never have held sovereignty of their own territory, but Palestine itself has. How would you react if a large number of, hmmm, let’s say Muslims, emigrated to the USA. Then over the passage of many years the Muslim contingent say, “we want our own part of the USA, we want the west half!” I’m sure that you would not agree to that yourselves (try to persuade me otherwise). So although they were given an offer, it was an offer they could not accept! Indeed given this situation, of course they want to destroy Israel, it is a nation that is built on Palestinian soil.

    Again Sushi, sorry to shoot you down so completely and comprehensively, but you appear to have forgotten who actually brought up the issue of the PLO. See your post 35. You were disputing the legitimacy of the PLO to proclaim the existence of the state of Palestine. I have simply pointed out that even the USA recognise that the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, the, and therefore the declaration was valid

    Sista, America does no recognize the state of Palestine, ok, thanks for pointing that out. This is less significant than you seem to think, you state that America is the most powerful nation in the world? Yes, but not by as much as you might think, and perhaps not for as long as you think either. Let’s talk about population, compare the population of the areas of the world that do recognize the State of Palestine to those that don’t, I don’t know the numbers, but I’d say they are definitely on the side of those nations that do. Then there is the fact that China, Russia (and indeed all of the former USSR), Japan and many, many more non, or at least predominantly non-Muslim nations recognize the State of Palestine, so let’s not make this a religious issue, huh?

    And no shit that many of the non-Muslim nations that recognize the State of Palestine are anti-Israeli, it’s kind of an either or situation. Either you consider the establishment of Israel to be “theft” of land that rightfully belongs to Palestine, or alternatively you agree with the establishment of Israel in Palestine, there is no room for compromise here.

    BTW Infidelesto, Sure there is prejudice against the western world by some Muslims, I do not dispute this and this prejudice is of course unreasonable in and of itself. But this does not excuse an Islamophobic response, which is by definition unreasonable. So really your own post was in its entirety foolish, huh, wasn’t it? Silly boy.

    Anyway, that was a bit long, sorry about that, but I did have three posts to reply to. Soooo, round three, DING ;)

  • sushiman

    Hey Abbadon. After reading your mess of incoherent babble… where the hell did creationism come into this?… here’s my rude and omgosh so impolite response where i may call u names and not be a nice boy… omgosh its horrid to be impolite but you dont seem to mind terrorism… where the hell are your priorities?

    I think the point is we fundamentally differ on the fact that you seem to believe in the legitamacy of terrorists. I dont give a flying rat’s ass who talks to the PLO or who considers them legitimate or what the hell their ‘doctrine’ says. I base my opinions on actions… you know what these people actually do. You know… commit terrorist acts, or support those doing them… as well as funding training camps for terrorists. also… i am 1 million times more OK with the united states of america… a legitimate country and the largest power in the world right now based on a system of morals and goodwill and democracy (even if some others in the world dont see it that way, and in truth sometimes it doesnt work out all ‘good’) to a country than i am with a group of TERRORISTS being funded millions. you are saying that its ok to give millions to terrorists cause the US gives money to another country? you are INSANE!!!! I dont care if they are allowed to ‘observe’ the UN, in my book and many millions of other peoples… they are terrorists and they will never get their state back unless they can take it by force or they can renounce their terrorist/fascist ways.

    Stop giving me the ‘proof’ from terrorists… cause it doesnt mean anything to me.

    You seem to think you’re such a genius… I submit you are a rambling lunatic. You jump all over the place and can’t even make a point. I HAVE TO USE ALL CAPS because you don’t seem to get the fact that your points dont mean anything to me when you are telling me about how Palestine exists… cause it doesnt I dont care how many articles you quote or countries you reference… GET BACK TO REALITY YOU ARE IN A FANTASY.

    Now, if you are questioning the MORALITY of the State of Israel being created by taking this land from the Muslims years ago, there is something we can actually debate and you would not look like such a fool saying things like the state of palestine exists. NO IT DOESNT. THE ISRAELIS TOOK THIS LAND AND IT IS THEIRS. You know, before nukes stopped the world from becoming afraid to fight, people actually attacked other countries and took land. You can debate whether or not this was a good thing or bad thing, but you look like a damn fool denying that it happened.

    You look as foolish as someone that denies that millions of people were killed in the holocaust. Seriously I hope you are not so deluded to think that as well.

    ISRAEL exists. PALESTINE does not. LOOK AT A MAP!

    As far as your christianity is as bad as islam rant… or w/e you were rambling about its so muddled with ridiculous statements i find it hard to read… i will say it once again and be done with it.

    christianity is based on peace, jesus taught to love your neighbor, and was said to have sacrificed himself for the rest of humanity.

    islam is based on war and oppression. mohammed taught to convert by the sword, and was said to have killed many and married a girl of 9 years old when he was over 50.

    thats fine if modern day muslims dont go along with the atrocities of the past, and are more ‘moderate’ as they say… it doesnt mean the religion of islam isnt still based on those things.

    yes atrocities happen all over the world, including the united states. i will put this in all caps so you can hopefully pick up on it, and i hope that my horrible bad name calling (wah) didnt hurt ur feelings enough to make this post unbearable… cause wow its sooooo much more important to be polite than to educate people on those that are truly EVIL in this world.


    this is the difference that this site is trying to educate the world about, so that the us and the rest of the world dont submit themselves and allow this sort of way of life take over. its been a while since the world had to deal with evil like hitler… i guess its that time again. the modern day nazis might not be white, but they are just as dangerous if not more. unfortunately, the fact that they are not white has blinded half the entire world into political correctness and appeasement and submission. not me. you, abbadon… certainly.

  • Infidelesto

    Abbadon – “BTW Infidelesto, Sure there is prejudice against the western world by some Muslims, I do not dispute this and this prejudice is of course unreasonable in and of itself. But this does not excuse an Islamophobic response, which is by definition unreasonable.”

    This “Islamophobic respone”? What does that even mean? So…Can anyone disagree with Islam without being scared of it? Do you even know what a “phobia” is? Why would I EVER be afraid of Muslims. I don’t live my life AFRAID. I live my life PREPARED TO REACT and protect family, my friends, and myself. I don’t go out committing acts of violence, burning embassies, marching in protest, calling for the beheadings of others. I set this blog up so I am able to express my right to free speech. I’m expressing my discontent and outright contempt for the foundations of Islam, and those who preach it. “Islamophobia” is the moderate Muslim’s copout term of the century.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Sushi, please read my last post and then get back to me. If you had done so you would have noted my statement which states that I do not condone terrorism:

    “Israel has committed acts tantamount to terrorism, as they deliberately targeted non-combatants. NOW I MUST POINT OUT THAT I DO NOT CONSIDER THIS (OR ANYTHING FOR THAT MATTER) TO BE AN EXCUSE FOR TERRORIST ACTS BY THE PLO, but then I am a bit of a pacifist, some might argue “give as good as you get”. (capitals inserted for emphasis ;) )”

    The take home point is that even Israel themselves recognise that the PLO are the voice of the Palestinian people. They are indeed a terrorist organization (and no-one is claiming otherwise are they?!), in the same way that Israel is a terrorist state. However YOUR opinion of the PLO is utterly irrelevant, I couldn’t give a mokeys me boy. The fact is that the declaration of a State of Palestine was valid, and was accepted by all most of the world (that didn’t have an agenda).

    Again you rant and rave like a lunatic, if you bothered to look at my posts you would realise that I am not saying (and never have said)that the state of Palestine exists as a geographical entity.

    Next time you accuse me of having a particular opinion it would perhaps be best if you quote some of my post to at least support your accusation, that might prevent you looking foolish.

    It is true that fundamentalist Islam is a threat, but tell me what proportion of Muslims fall into this fundamentalist category? Just give me an idea, your tone seems to indicate that you think all Muslims are a threat.

  • sushiman

    Here it comes again.

    “Israel has commited acts tantamount to terrorism, as the deliberately targeted non-combatants.” Yeah, I’m sure that in the IDF handbook it says: “Ignore those with weapons, and shoot at the unarmed civilians!”

    LOL. Come on… seriously I am not saying this did not happen, but don’t throw it in there to equate Israel with Terrorists that suicide bomb themselves for the SOLE purpose of taking as many as they can with them. I have never EVER even heard a hint of an Israeli/Jew/ANYONE other than an Islamic Terrorist that uses his own body as an explosive weapon to kill without gain.

    Maybe they had to aim at civilians because their enemies were hiding behind women and children while firing at the Israeli soldiers. (i dont know if this is what you are refering to, as you once again provide no proof and just blindly regurgitate propaganda….) Yeah, theres some honor for ya. Hide behind children and unarmed women because its wrong to shoot them… but when Israeli soldiers do what they have to do you call them terrorists. Why don’t you stop apologizing for the PLO and other terrorists and instead condemn the fact that they use women and children as body shields? (oh wait, i forgot that you are about as likely to be shot at by a child in these areas as an adult, cause they train them to hate jews/america and kill jews/americans and give them weapons and show them how long before they reach puberty)

    Your propaganda is obvious. “Israel has committed acts tantamount to terrorism, as they deliberately targeted non-combatants.” While there may be truth in this, you are ignoring the larger picture and the reason for this. You are ignoring reason and logic. You are using emotion and political correctness to cloud your judgment. You are allowing the brain washing and propaganda of the anti-american/israeli media to happen. You are one of many, so dont feel too bad about it. I can only hope that you can look past the hatred and fear of the jews and america that a large portion of the world has been blinded and brain washed over. No.. the US and Israel are NOT PERFECT, but they are NOT TERRORISTS.

    I am done arguing that the State of Palestine exists. I wonder what that word, ‘exists’ means to you. You seem to think that having it written down “The State of Palestine” and having a group of people (anti-jew/america) believe it… makes it so. To use a really old analogy, people used to believe the world was flat, that was obviously proven false. I will prove you false right now. Go to Palestine. Find their government offices and go buy a piece of property that is under their control. Or, if they wont sell you any property… go visit a piece of land that is controlled by their government and their military, and is not a part of another government’s jurisdiction. Go apply to be a citizen of the “State of Palestine”. When you sign up on websites select your country of origin as the “State of Palestine”. Get a job in the “State of Palestine” and pay the government your income taxes. Find me a map containing the “State of Palestine” that was created by someone that is concerned with reason, facts, reality and logic instead of hatred of america and jews. Show me some evidence that Israel was not taken by force of arms about 60? years ago… or show me some evidence that the army of the “State of Palestine” has taken it back.

    Show me something that wasnt trumped up by a jew/america/israel hater. just noticed something you said, “let’s not make this a religious issue, huh?” uh, the entire thing is a religous issue, especially what you are talking about, seeing as how under Islamic law the religion and the government are one and the same. how many times you gonna do it abbadon?

    Stop supporting the non-white Nazis just cause they are not white.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Infidelesto – This “Islamophobic respone”? What does that even mean?

    I have defined Islamophobia already, but I will do so from a different source:
    prejudice against Muslims; “Muslim intellectuals are afraid of growing Islamophobia in the West”

    Who ever said that Islamophobia requires the Islamophobe to fear Islam. Get a better dictionary

  • Infidelesto

    haha, obviously I know what it means. It’s a rhetorical question regarding the use of the word, and the ridiculousness behind it.

    The fact remains that the term “Islamophobia” confuses discrimination against Muslims with criticism of Islam, and is used to silence critics of the religion, including Muslims who want to reform it.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Sushi, the thing is I equate terrorism with terrorism. committing one act of terror is enough for me (so long as it is sanctioned by the regime then that regime is a terrorist organisation)

    Israel have committed acts of terror before, and will do so again. Israel do not need to strap explosives to themselves in order to kill civilians, they have mortars, bombers, attack choppers, need I continue.

    Sushi – I am done arguing that the State of Palestine exists.
    Thank you for your concession that the State of Palestine exists. Sorry couldn’t resist. ;)

    Seriously though, I have never actually said that the state of Palestine exists. If you bothered to read my posts you would realise that. My argument is that THE STATE OF PALESTINE IS RECOGNISED.

    You continue to show yourself up as a fool Sushiman

  • sushiman

    “But this does not excuse an Islamophobic response, which is by definition unreasonable. So really your own post was in its entirety foolish, huh, wasn’t it? Silly boy”

    Islamophobic response or really I guess you are saying being an Islamophobe is unreasonable. (whether or not its out of fear or hatred, which by the way is just another form of fear).

    Seriously? It’s unreasonable to be afraid of a large group of people chanting death to america and terrorists crashing planes into large buildings? Its unreasonable to be afraid of being in a situation where you have to make a decision like, “should i jump out this window to my death or allow the flames to overtake me?” That is unreasonable?

    I wonder at what you consider reason. Cause Islamophobia refers to people that are afraid of what radical islamic people can do, have done, and may do in the future. And, if you consider the fact that these acts are lumped together into the term “Terrorism” because they promote “TERROR” aka “FEAR”… saying that it is unreasonable to be afraid of terrorism makes you look ever more foolish.

    Saying that Islamophobia is unreasonable is about the dumbest thing I have ever heard of. But it doesnt surprise me that you came up with it, cause everything I’ve read of yours so far has been completely irrational, without reason or logic… and has been totally based on propaganda, brain washing and political correctness stupidity.

    Do it again please.

    (as response to your latest attack on my grammar, rather than my points… you are an idiot. i argue using reason and logic, you argue using grammar and propaganda)

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Sorry Infidelesto, but from your statements regarding fear seemed to indicate such a misconception.

    I agree that there potential for confusion between discrimination against Muslims with criticism of Islam. However do not forget that there are many that go beyond criticism and enter into the realms of prejudice against Muslims.

  • Abbadon Satanson


    First and foremost you state that Islamophobia is reasonable. Islamaphobia involves prejudice against Muslims. So are you saying that “‘unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes” http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice are reasonable. I am sure you do not mean this, it doesn’t make any sense.

    Perhaps you can give one instance in which I have used ‘propaganda’. Please give me one example of a statement that I have made which is untrue. Go ahead punk.

    By the way, I appologise for poking fun at your grammatical difficulties (although you must admit, I gotchya there didn’t I :P ). I will stop this pisstaking as soon as you stop attacking my character by making wholly unsubstantiated claims, and when you stop your name calling.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    The fact is Sushi I am not saying it is unreasonable to be afraid of a large group of people chanting death to America and terrorists crashing planes into large buildings? That seems fair enough to me. But, (and this is the crux of my argument) Islamophobia crosses the line from reasonable condemnation of this kind of behavior, to acting in the same way as the fanatics (well, to start with, without the terrorism, but that may very well come later).

  • sushiman

    again, more attacks based on nuances of grammer…

    islamophobia = fear of islam. dont care what else it ‘involves’ or how many dictionary references or how many grammatical mistakes you correct, you cannot tell me that islamophobia doesnt mean fear of people that follow the true, strict and violent nature of the religion of islam. cause thats what it means to me… and thats what it means to most people that read it. no one is afraid of ‘muslims’ i have many friends personally that fall into that category, people are AFRAID OF TERRORISTS. stop arguing about diction and grammar, THE POINT IS THE FEAR IS OF TERRORISTS AND WHAT THEY COULD POSSIBLY DO NEXT! i dont care what words or language you use, as long as you can illustrate that point… (HITLER WAS A GREAT SPEAKER AND ORATOR, NOT SO GOOD IN THE MORALITY AND LOGIC DEPARTMENT). you have done NOTHING AT ALL in this argument to show how the religion of islam is not a method of violence, murder and abuse. NOTHING. all you have done is said, ‘oh hey these guys do it too, or well that word really means this…’ who f***ing cares! tell me why i should not be worried about millions of members of a religion bent on convert or kill, nations being led by a dictator chanting in streets about the death of me and my friends? what is wrong with you, that you care more about nuances of language than about the violence, murder, torture, abuse, oppression, slavery… what the hell has the world come to when people think the way you do? cause unfortunately many people are PERSUADED by words and the manipulations of language, instead of being informed on THE TRUTH.

    abbadon, stop worrying about ‘THE TRUE DICTIONARY DEFINITON’ and the ‘EXACT ORDER OF WORDS IN A SENTENCE’.

    abbadon, start worrying about sharia law, and the consequences of living under a dictatorship in which religion and government are one and the same.

    abbadon stop telling me how the rest of the world is not perfect, cause thats obvious to everyone, especially me.

    abbason start telling the world that you dont want to be a slave, that you think the integration of religion and state are a bad thing (REGARDLESS OF WHAT COLOR OR LOCATION OF ORIGIN IT RELATES TO). start telling people that women should have equal rights as men, and that legitimate governments and laws should protect victims and the weak, instead of punishing those girls who were guilty of being raped. start telling people about how you dont like the way israel is acting, or the us, but you still are not going to condone the acts of radical islamic people. cause seriously, the only time this entire argument you have made any sense is when you say you dont support terrorism…. even though by your words and methodologies, i differ and believe that you DO support terrorism, even if you are muddled enough to think otherwise.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    lol, Sushi, would you be so kind as point out where exactly I attacked you about a nuance of grammar since your past post?

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Good God Sushi, do you not listen? That Islamophobia does not equate to fear is PRECISELY the point I am making. Apart from how rude you were to mary hughes Thompson, to discuss Islamophobia was the whole point of me getting involved in this ‘debate’.

    I have not yet even started on disproving the violence of the Islamic faith. I might give that a go at some point. It might be a more difficult one to argue as there is a fair bit of violence in the Qur’an, one might even say that it is “fundamental” to the faith (hrhr). But you must admit it would be good fun.

    The spectre of living in an Islamic state doesn’t worry me in the slightest. Nor should it worry you, do you seriously believe that these fanatics are capable of establishing Sharia in the USA, or Europe? Meh, not on my watch.

    Perhaps you would like to qualify this statement “even though by your words and methodologies, i differ and believe that you DO support terrorism, even if you are muddled enough to think otherwise.”

    I have to ask, which of us do you think sounds more like a fanatic?

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Well I’m off to Devon (a lovely part of England) this weekend, so I will be out of touch for the weekend. I’ll catch you all on Monday.

    Sushi – If you would seriously like to discuss the morality of the creation of the State of Israel I would like that. And for goodness sake, try not to get so worked up.

  • sushiman

    “Perhaps you can give one instance in which I have used ‘propaganda’. Please give me one example of a statement that I have made which is untrue. Go ahead punk.”

    “Israel is a terrorist state” – here’s one. propaganda.

    “Islamophobia crosses the line from reasonable condemnation of this kind of behavior, to acting in the same way as the fanatics” – an example of an untrue statement. military actions in an attempt to stop the flood of terrorist activity is not terrorism. its called self defense. if someone comes at me with a knife… i will ‘stoop to their level’ and use a knife myself to kill them before they can kill me. anyone that thinks otherwise is completely contrary to the nature of life. however, no one stoops to the level of terrorists, even the country you hate so much, israel. if you really think they do… PROVE IT… something you are not good at, unless it is proof of the dictionary definition of a word… go wiki!!!

    “State of Palestine may not have any sovereignty over its claimed territory it is nevertheless a recognised state”

    that is an oxymoron… what its a ‘state’ of mind? oooo. no sovereignty over terroitory, yet its a recognized state. i dont live in the fantasy world u do i guess, that doesnt make sense to me. what does make sense is that the area was attacked in 1948 and the victors of that war were the jewish people that attacked, and claimed the land, and set up a government… and have been able to defend it thus far with their help from their allies, the united states. that makes sense to me. theoretical ‘states’ that are recognized yet dont exist i find hard to put any faith in.

    “Sushiman, raping and beating of women is no more prevalent in Islamic society than in the west, and showing a bunch of articles giving a few examples of the abuse of women in Islamic society is hardly going to persuade me.


    I have not condoned the treatment of those women, and indeed I have made no mention of their treatment at all”

    blah… another fallacy. i talk about how rape is condoned by islamic governments by letting the raper get away while the victims gets lashings… you say rape occurs in the west too… i say ok fine rape occurs in the west but no government condones it, whereas islamic states do condone it… then you’ve lost and you make a true statement which doesnt argue your point, instead it distracts from the point of the conversation: the point is that under islamic law women are treated as second class citizens and if they get raped they can expect to go to jail and get lashed for it, whereas in the west its the rapist is hunted and punished by the government, not the victim. a clear distinction. i did not say you condone raping women, i am saying that this horrible treatment of women exists in islamic states and is one of the main points the speakers were talking about… and you can only spout back… ‘rape occurs in the west too’. yea it does… and im glad you can clarify what you did and didnt say in your comments… great… i am talking about the issue at large and the reason why i think this lady (AND YOU) are nutcases, for trying to stop people from speaking out against the horrors and crimes against humanity that exist under islamic law.

    are you saying that islamic states are not totalitarian regimes? or that totalitarian regimes are good? i doubt you would… so why do you nitpick points of people that speak about it? i never said u condoned these acts of inhumanity… im sayin that your equating the west and the islamic states, in this case over the treatment of women (specifically my mention of the article of the girl who got lashed for getting herself raped), is extremely absurd. just because people still do bad things, doesnt mean the established governments have to promote/condone it.

    “The Jews who had normally resided in Palestine until the beginning of the Zionist invasion will be considered Palestinians.” – more propaganda. while on the surface this makes them seem really reasonable and honorable and oooooh the plo is so nice people. lets think about this rationally. the jews. normally residing in ‘palestine’ until the beginning of the zionist invasion. basically… so all the jews that are at least over the age of 60 (1948 invasion) will be considered palestinians. oh im sure they want that! these few people that probably consider themselves really lucky the invasion happened get to be lumped into a group that is most commonly associated with terrorism! yay! but everyone else thats in israel is infidel and deserves death. if israel truly were the terrorist state you speak of, and acted the same way the terrorists do… every single palestinian under the age of 60 would be dead already. you dont think they have the ability to do it? you think that if the situation were reversed, the palestinians would hold back and not kill all the jews? really? cause thats all they talk about… its the reason they were created. further reason and logic and proof that your equating israel and the west as being terrorists or ‘as bad as the fascists’ is completely ridiculous… unless you get brain washed by propaganda. then it all makes sense!!!! tell me more hitler!!!

    “I have simply pointed out that even the USA recognise that the PLO to be the legitimate representative of the Palestinian people, the, and therefore the declaration was valid

    Sista, America does no recognize the state of Palestine, ok, thanks for pointing that out.”

    i dont even know where to begin here… the plo’s main goal is to reclaim by force (by the death of all jews other than those over 60 that dont wouldnt want to be excluded anyway) the land that israel now occupies… wants to claim as it’s own “State of Palestine” it is their main goal and the reason they were created.

    thats what should be talked about, not the nuances of who recognizes who as a representative of a people versus who recognizes what land boundries exist vs… blah blah blah. the point that i think everyone is concerned with is terrorism, totalitarian governments, and islamic law convert or die… this lady said free palestine and thats what i attacked… her claim to ‘free’ a people so they can go out and commit mass genocide! free them please!!! you know… in our country we respect freedom, but some people arent free. you know… those people that go out and murder… or rape… or steal… crazy huh! crazy to think that i dont want to see a group bent on the murder of an entire nation ‘freed’!

    you dont care about that part. the slaughter. you care about the nuances of the language that you can correct me on the difference between a state with territory and a representative body of a people… cause those two… well it seems like they should be the same.

    “lol, Sushi, would you be so kind as point out where exactly I attacked you about a nuance of grammar since your past post?”
    yeah… what i really meant was definitions. omg so sorry that i used the wrong word to express that your arguments are not based on facts, but rather based on language. for example:

    “First and foremost you state that Islamophobia is reasonable. Islamaphobia involves prejudice against Muslims. So are you saying that “‘unreasonable feelings, opinions, or attitudes” http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/prejudice are reasonable.”

    thats wonderful that in the dictionary it says that islamophobia involves prejudice against muslims. thats fine that prejudice is politically incorrect and is unreasonable when it comes to grouping an entire race into a category. cause thats racist. OMG you win you win the prize! racism is not reasonable. you have made a circle of the logic to make it sound like i said that it is reasonable to be racist!

    lets do a reality check: what i was saying, is that it is PERFECTLY REASONABLE to be worried about what may happen in the future based on the violent nature of those that support the true radical islam. very reasonable. yes. very much so. i saw the twin towers fall down. its reasonable to be afraid that terrorists will do something like that again, since they keep saying they have worse coming. its reasonable to be afraid that if you live in a major city it could be a target for a terrorist attack.

    actually, i am saying that it in fact IS reasonable to be prejudice – its just not right(or moral or good) to be prejudice. regardless of what your wiki says, there is some ‘reason’ to assuming the worst about a group of people… yeah its wrong ethically, but unreasonable? lets put aside all other types of racism, lets just talk about prejudice against muslims. there are millions and millions of followers of islam, that are muslim. maybe even a billion? i dont know the numbers exactly. the true religion of islam is that of violence… and you have yet to dispute me on any statement of this nature that i have made (you know, a real topic). let me continue my logic… there are perhaps a billion people that follow a religion of violence and hate… how is anyone to know which ones dont actually follow the religion to the letter and which do and are true fundamentalists? should a person wait until they are dead from a terrorist attack to try and find out?

    sure assuming that all muslims are terrorists is unreasonable… but having the prejudice or bias that many people that follow islam are terrorists or would openly support sharia law at least is reasonable, cause its true. out of a billion people, a very very small percentage can be terrorists and this still equates to “many people”. the question is which ones are peaceful and which ones follow the convert or die. is it reasonable to assume that any individual muslim could be a terrorist? yes. is it reasonable to assume that all muslims are terrorists? of course not. so while you are correct that prejudice is unreasonable, prejudice can also be reasonable if you use a little different language. ‘assuming all muslims are terrorist’ vs ‘assuming any individual muslim could potentially be a terrorist’. both are prejudice, probably wrong morally and ethically, but one is at least reasonable while the other is not.

    my point here… which could have saved alot of spamming posts, is that you are making arguments that are not based on the true issues at stake here, but rather trying to nitpick flaws of our writing or of the lack of perfection in western civilizations. israel does not do 100% moral ethical stuff every single day 24/7… heck no. but lets look at the situation, and take it out of a debate about a single sentence in which you can claim that the israeli government has killed civilians(and is therefore terrorist lol): all millitaries in the world that have ever existed killed civilians, regardless of what efforts were made to avoid that. look at the situation. israel has to face an enemy that is willing to LITERALLY hide behind a child and use that child as a human body shield. NO ONE in the israeli army is using that tactic!!! israel has enemies on all sides, and the majority of nations in its region would like nothing better than its destruction. heres a news flash for you! israel is not just going to accept that. whether or not YOU think it was right or moral or valid or ethical for the jews to invade and take over israel is beside the point! thats the world we live in, the real world, as of today! they are still going to try to….. EXIST. which they cannot if palestine is ‘freed’, because the only way the plo and the palestinians will consider it ‘free’ is when all the jews are dead! yes they will do what it takes to survive… the difference is the israeli government does not plot the destruction and death of its neighbors. as u said they have nukes given by the us, if they were as bad as the terrorists there would be many mushroom clouds over the middle east. dont make your arguments based on things out of context and things that are not defined correctly or ordered correctly in a sentence.

    now i’ve just opened the flood gates for you to point out how many thousands of ways ‘prejudice’ = ‘racism’ = bad. here it comes! cause you want to attack my view that there is potentially some reason to a mild form of prejudice (which is all just a discussion on the meaning of the words in a language! is one really prejudice then, if it is reasonable? hmmm how bout we ponder the meaning of the word ‘is’!)… instead of caring about what i think on the fact that israel does not commit the same acts that terrorists do, and you wont give me links to that. cause i dont even think the jew/america hating factions of media have any pictures (photoshopped or not) of israeli soldiers hiding behind children so they dont get shot at. i have never seen any proof that the israeli government is founded on the goal of killing all palestinians. i have never seen any nukes launched from israel. i have never seen any israeli citizens strap a bomb to their chest and run into a bus. i have never seen or heard of an israeli citizen in some place in europe bombing an embassy. i have never seen israeli rallys and marches in streets calling for someone’s death over a cartoon or joke (wow the whole world would be dead if israelis murdered over jokes about jews), or over a true statement that makes their religion look bad (the one the pope made and had to apologize over). i could go on, but i know you arent here to debate the issues.

    rather you are here to try and apologize for this disrupter of free speech (in a roundabout way apologize for the terrorists). you are here to poke and prod and show that the rest of the world isnt perfect. you are here to try and promote the propaganda that the west is ‘as bad’ as the islamic fundamentalists… so it doesnt make your heritage look so shaded? i dont know what your motivation is… you seem to be against terrorism and islam in general, yet every time someone tries to say islam is bad and that people following radical islam are dangerous… you have a problem with it! you argue against it! you said in another post that religions are bad for the well being of the world… islam is a religion, and as far as the well being of the world it is the WORST OF THE BUNCH! why do you keep apologizing for it!

    i cant possibly understand how you can say that a government condoning horrible acts and crimes against humanity is equal to a government that, although such acts of humanity exist and happen ‘on their watch’, passes laws against such crimes, prosecutes and punishes those that commit such acts… never condoning. even when the government steps out of line and commits these acts… no one celebrates them. no one in america says, ‘YES!!! america had concentration camps for the japanese in WW2!!! YES GO USA!’ instead, we say…’well, it might not have been a bad idea strategically, but wow we were just as bad as the nazis on this smaller scale, and we need to work towards not letting that happen again’. see the difference?

    on a smaller scale, when an individual rapes a girl, the us government does not say, ‘good job! now lets beat the shit out of that dumb girl that was dumb enough to have been forcefully raped without having any choice in the matter!’ instead… the us government has investigations and gets lawyers to catch the person that was responsible and determine their guilt, and then punish them accordingly. then the victim is given means of help via therapy, to try and get her life back together. yea a girl can be raped in the west just like in the islamic states… but dont you see the difference? sure the west system might not be perfect, might get abused, and might be unjust in a number of cases… but it doesnt SUPPORT violence and abuse and slavery and oppression… sigh. sick of talking about language with abbadon. i concede you are better at writing posts that have correct grammar and diction and you are better at having the exact dictionary defintion of words. i will continue to try and talk about issues and real problems that face the world, not about the problems of the use of language (execpt the devices of propaganda). will you talk about the issues? or will you attack someones use of the word islamo-somethingaddedontheendhere. i doubt it, cause you are busy looking up the definitions of words i have used (especially prejudice and reason, im sure).

    “Perhaps you would like to qualify this statement “even though by your words and methodologies, i differ and believe that you DO support terrorism, even if you are muddled enough to think otherwise.”

    I have to ask, which of us do you think sounds more like a fanatic?”

    Heres your qualification: you equate the west to the islamic law/states. You make it seem like their atrocities are not as bad as they really are, because other countries are not perfect. You apologize for this lunatic that would be miserable under sharia law as a woman, i mean slave. You are a political correct appeaser that is trying to numb the world to the threat of totalitarian islam. lol who ‘sounds’ like more of a fanatic… yea thats all you care about, is how polite you ‘sound’ and not how your words are indirectly supporting terrorism.

    i think this is the real distinction between the two divides in this world…. between the ones who submit and the ones who protect themselves… etc, the problem is: abbadon is concerned with political correctness; i am concerned with the genocide of a people, and the domination of the world by a totalitarian regime. before you say blah domination blah paranoid blah racist blah all your political correctness devices to distract from the concept of the desire of islam to ‘dominate the world’, i will just say it is a known fact that is the goal of fundamental/radical islam, and is all over signs and websites. “islam will dominate the world”.

    ugh did i make enough pre-emptive strikes to fend off attacks on my use of words? have i gotten across the point that i am not racist against muslims, but that i am completely opposed to anyone that even remotely supports the ‘true’ religion of islam or any islamic state/sharia law?

    political correctness! ATTACK!

  • Mary Hughes-Thompson

    My my, I did get some feathers ruffled didn’t I? To repeat, I was not escorted out, nor did I “scream” or even make a comment as I walked out of the forum. My only “comment” was the R on my “Free Palestine” T-shirt as part of the LIAR message to Daniel Pipes.

    My friends and I merely stood up and walked out when Pipes began his first disgusting spew of racism. I agree that some of the pro-zionist audience shouted “out” as we left. There were no police or security people involved.

    Two separate groups of students also chose to walk out, also unescorted. These young people make me – a grandmother – very proud

    Mary Hughes-Thompson
    volunteer in Palestine and Iraq
    International Solidarity Movement
    Christian Peacemaker Teams
    Women in Black

    Free Palestine

  • sushiman

    hm thought u were the “LI”

    Free Palestine? might as well rally around “FREE MONGOLIA!”

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Erm Mongolia is kinda free.

    I really can’t be bothered to argue with you on this issue any longer Sushiman, as we seem to having a circuitous argument. I will let people decide from the content of our discussion where they lie on the issues, but I would like to point out that I have only stated fact, and have not engaged in emotional grandstanding like Sushiman has. Thanks for the support Thompson, really appreciate that…..

    Nice map BTW Sushi.

  • sushiman

    Abbadon, I really hope you stop, and no I’m not going to let you ‘get the last word’ like the debater you are. How convenient it must be to just decide to back out of a debate right after every single fallacious argument you make gets shot down and destroyed.

    You have not shown a single fact, not even one. You say things like, ‘I have only stated fact’ – this by itself does not make it so. I could say ‘I am the King of France’… it does not make it so. You have not shown a single fact. And I will say it again. You have not shown even one fact. Please show me one fact. Oh wait, you can’t… cause you don’t have any facts. Only propaganda.

    Thanks and have a good (and factless) day.

    (fyi its called sarcasm… as mongolia exists but the mongolian empire does not… now back to your lack of facts.)

  • Abbadon Satanson

    So far as facts are concerned how about:

    1. the state of Palestine is recognised by most of the world
    2. the PLO is considered by most nations, including the USA and Israel to be the legitimate representatives of the Palestine people
    3. The state of Israel has deliberately targeted civilians, and is therefore a terrorist state.

    These three are facts that I have stated from the top of my head, in about 5 mins, there are no doubt many more gems in there. You cannot dispute the factual accuracy of the first two, look in any encyclopedia and you will see that they are correct.

  • sushiman

    i like how you admit yourself that #3 is not factual, in your last sentence there.

    as far as the first two go… you are calling something a ‘fact’ based on a word like ‘recognise’, which is a soft word, and please dont let me have to explain that im sure you can understand that ‘recognise’ can mean a thousand things, and not a single one of them involves the actual existence of a state of palestine… which is the issue, not who is ‘recognised’ lol. your 2nd statement, although it might be fact, does nothing to show that the PLO is not a terrorist organization. fine, you have shown the FACT that the usa and israel believe that the palestinian people are represented by terrorists. thanks for point out what everyone already knows.

    as for your 3rd… i will be brief. PROOF?! WHERE?!

    “3. The state of Israel has deliberately targeted civilians, and is therefore a terrorist state.”



    go ahead and post again with something ridiculous so u can have the last word, debater.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    Sushi, you haven’t proved a SINGLE ONE of my arguments to be even slightly inaccurate (or without factual basis), let alone shot ANY of them down. In addition to this I have not yet made a single statement that cannot be demonstrated as fact.

    Recognise is not a soft word, there is nothing soft about it. I know you don’t like “definitions” but they do give the accepted true meaning of a word, which can be useful (unless you want to make up your own language…….). The definition of RECOGNISE: “to acknowledge formally as entitled to treatment as a political unit.” Could you tell me what exactly is “soft” about that?

    All I have stated is that the state of Palestine is recognised by most of the world (see my post number 32). Is that incorrect? The point is that the recognition of the state of Palestine demonstrates that most of the world agrees that Palestinians should be allowed to form their own state (if you disagree with this point, then please be good enough to give reasons for your arguments, supported with factual authority). You can yap on about how about it does not own any territory till the cows come home, but you are merely evading the issue.

    So far as my statement “You cannot dispute the factual accuracy of the first two, look in any encyclopaedia and you will see that they are correct” is concerned, there is the fact that some might argue (rather pedantically) that there is no such thing as a terrorist state, however it seems logical to call a state that commits acts of terror a terrorist state.

    Next, I have not stated that the PLO is not a terrorist organisation. But that is not the point, if you look on the PLO article on wiki, it states that: “In numerous Resolutions by the General Assembly the PLO was declared the “sole legitimate representative of the Palestinian People”.”. It does not matter whether or not you think that their commission of acts of terror ilegitimises the PLO, if you can persuade the UN of that then your point is valid.

    For a fairly comprehensive list of the targeting of civilians by both sides of the 2006 Lebanon War have a look at:


    There we go, I am sure that you will post again with another load of baseless and irrelevant grandstanding.

  • utvikingr

    Abbadon loses this one, despite the last word. “palestine” is a Hobbesian vortex.
    “Recognition” of this farcical entity has many self-interested origins, as varied as the governments involved. We ‘recognize’ that the Bloods and Crips exist in south Central LA and beyond; that doesn’t make them worthy of independence. If targeting civilians is the test of terrorism, we’re all terrorist by association, you bloody Brit.

  • Abbadon Satanson

    I quite agree that Palestine is a Hobbesian vortex, however it is a vortex created largely by the Jewish “settlers” of the land that you have correctly identified as Palestine.

    So the USA diplomatically recognises the Bloods and Crips? Wow, you do surprise me. I thought that they were illegal gangs, I was unaware that the USA acknowledges the status of the Bloods or the Crips as a state or government.

    P.S. check this this wiki article it will explain the meaning of diplomatic recognition.

    I disagree with you on the last point. If targeting of civilians is sanctioned by the state then that state is a terrorist one! However if some idiot with a gun decides to go on a rampage, and he just happens to be British, then that does not make Britain a terrorist state. I don’t know how you would like to define “state sanctioned”, but it would in reality require the approval of the Tony Blair (otherwise it is not sanctioned by the head of state!). I don’t like old Tone that much, but I don’t believe he is capable of sanctioning an attack on civilians.

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  • alfalfa


    Maybe we can come up with a list of what mohummad and muslims have phobias about???

  • Tonto (USA)

    Abbadon, you forget that Palestine was NEVER a state/nation before.  At WWII time it was that name applied to define an area of the world.  It’s like saying the Sahara should be granted national status.  Palestine changed hands several times since the Romans ran out the Israelis right?  It never was more than a troublesome Provence, at best, at any time.  Sure there were people there but who were they?  There were plenty of BOTH jews and arabs but they acquired and accepted the identity of whatever national entity OWNED that area at the time. Only after WWII was there a move made by repartriated jews to make it a state called Israel with a jewish identity.  They been haggling over that ever since.  Americans like the jews better, it’s true, but only because they are less nuts than the arabs.  Jews want democracy and trade and progress.  Arabs want murder, destruction and the insanity of islam.  That is totally unaccepable just on general principles.  Islam sucks!  I really believe that. And, I feel sorry for any adherents of islam that are ignorant enough to suject themselves to it.

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  • chris

    Your link re; your video appearance on Al Jazeera only provded a link to friends of aljazeera. I typed a search in to find the actual video… but nothing.

    Can you provide a link to the actual video > ?