Al Qaeda leader claims responsibility for stopping the building of Christian Churches in the Arab World

by Kal El on May 24, 2008 · 31 comments

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Terrorism: Al-Qaeda halts spread of the church in Arab world, claims leaderDubai, 23 May (AKI) – A senior al-Qaeda leader, Abu Yahya al-Libi, claims that the terror organisation has stopped the expansion of the church in the Arab world.

“If it wasn’t for our heroes, today we would have many churches in the Arabian Peninsula, as we have already seen with the opening of one in Qatar,” said al-Libi in a video message posted to Islamist websites.

He was referring to the Catholic church inaugurated in the Qatari capital, Doha, in March this year.

Al-Libi also talked about the “danger” posed by inter-religious dialogue between the Arab Ulema or Muslim religious leaders and their Christian counterparts.

The 40-minute message entitled, “The moderation of Islam and the moderation of defeat”, seeks to refute the notion of a moderate Islam.

“At this moment there is a crusader campaign against Islam and that has succeeded in corrupting the personalities in our religion,” al-Libi said.

“Changes in Islamic thought are happening in particular in the most important Arab countries. With the excuse of moderation, they are corrupting our faith.”

He said that Christians “use false slogans and declare that civilisations are talking and not fighting, that the religions are getting closer and are not clashing.”

Al-Libi criticised these “ideas of the unbelievers”.

“We must not believe any international laws or laws of the United Nations and we must knock down their idols,” he said.

“With them, there can be no dialogue and no cooperation.”

Al-Libi attacked Saudi Arabia’s King Abdullah, who has suggested hosting a conference on religious dialogue in Saudi Arabia.

“The guardian of monotheism has raised the flag of brotherhood between religions and speaks about things that he does not know,” al-Libi said.

“I swear to Allah to fight this apostate and to denounce his absurdity.”

The message ended with a warning.

“Qatar is not far,” said al-Libi, adding that “soon we will ring the bells of the church in the heart of the Arabian Peninsula.”

Read the rest on the ADNKRONOS site. Isn’t tolerance wonderful!

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  • Scott

    As an atheist, I find both extremist Christians (you) and extremist Muslims (Jerk in article above) absolutely hilarious.
    You’re both so blatantly hypocritical that it makes my head spin. You engage in Orwellian double speak to advance a cause that is in perfect parity with the cause you oppose. Apparently Eastasia has always been at war with Oceania.

    In this post, you make a mockery of Muslim religious tolerance, while in you openly support the Christian analogue, which deserves the exact same mockery.

    You may not be a member of any of the Christian sects in the world that engage regularly in sectarian violence, but I would call your refusal to acknowledge their existence direct support of their cause (Only because you would call moderate Muslim silence on the issue the same)

    I personally hope that you all burn in your respective Hells.

    • Anonymous

      Atheist my ass. Only musloids assume anyone who’s not a fellow primitive MUST be a Jew or Christian.

      “I  personally hope that you all burn in your respective Hells.”

      Riiiight, Mr. Atheist. I really AM an atheist and I wish you and your fellow primitives to have miserable lives followed by  slow and excrutiating deaths because…hell doesn’t exist.

      • Scott

        Musloid? Primitive? I’m not sure what defines your response more, ignorance or blindness.

        Either you have absolutely no education regarding the history of the parties at play, or you’re simply blinded by the indoctrinated upbringing by either your parents, or your peers during your clearly fantastic primary education.

        I have little doubt that there is no hell, but people once had little doubt that the Earth was flat. I am saddened that you are an Atheist, because you give me and my peers, who are clearly your intellectual betters, a bad name.

        I see a future where people are entitled to their beliefs, and free from the persecution of pathetic, small people such as yourself.

        I am an atheist; I don’t believe in a diety. I do believe however that I don’t get to tell other people if their beliefs in things unproved is merited or not. Get over yourself you intellectual child. Go back to school.

        • Anonymous

          This is the best you can come up with, musloid? Ad hominems?

          “I do believe however that I don’t get to tell other people if their beliefs in things unproved is merited or not. Get over yourself you intellectual child. Go back to school.”

          Perhaps you should learn to practice what you preach.

          The truth is, I wish that musloids like you would stop pretending to be Atheists in an attempt to sell your vile ideology. Your hubris and delusions of your own grandeur while trying to sell an outdated, primitive arab culture, makes the real Atheists look like hypocrites.

          Sorry to burst your bubble, abdullah, but dawa courses at the local madrassa do not make you an intellectual titan in the real world.

          • Scott

            … You respond to my comment with an ad hominem response, and chide me for the same? You are so typical for your disposition.

            I am a 28 year old male, Caucasian liberal atheist, living in Seattle, WA, USA. We have a large muslim minority here (Mostly pakistanis and persians).

            scotty2, mobile phones. You can google me. Hell, I’ll even accept your friend request on FB :) I am who I say. Your attacks are ridiculously immature and riddled with ignorance and fear.

            The people I know and work with of the Islamic faith are both kind, and open minded. They make jokes about me burning in hell for my lack of a faith, but they don’t really believe it or care. You’re trying to create a crusade where there is none. Western culture has slaughtered more people under the auspice of religion than the Muslims could hope to achieve in the rest of the history of the world. I’m certain you’d like to debate that, but you can’t back it up with anything other than un-cited claims.

            What’s worse, and even more depressing, is the Muslims I know come off as so much more educated than you. So much less hard-line. You’re a modern day McCarthyist, and the world is so much better off without you and your ilk.

            It saddens me that your eyes have been sewn shut by those you laid out your path. I chose my own, and my eyes are open.

          • Anonymous

            Do please cite some sources for “Western culture has slaughtered more people under the auspice of religion than the Muslims could hope to achieve in the rest of the history of the world.” This should be good for a laugh.

            Oh yes, we know which path you’re headed down.

            The only question is is the muslima they promised you of legal age?

            Just a question? If you love communism and your “modern, moderate” musloid friends and their culture so much why aren’t you living in communist China or porkistan? If you believe the cultures of communism and and islam are so wonderful why are you trying to cram them down the throats of those who reject them?

          • Scott


            The crusades being a particularly tasty one, if you’ve ever read about all the various crusades. Millions of Muslims killed for no other reason than being Muslim. Not for violating Christian laws, as might lead a Christian in Muslim lands to be executed, but simply for being Muslim.

            There are some very messed up countries out there today with undemocratic totalitarian governments that are striving to catch up on the body count, but they’re too small. They’re so much smaller than you make them out to be – and what’s worse, is you somehow hold them to be the definition of Islam, as if I were able to hold the slaughters of Christianity as definitions of it. I cannot, just like you cannot.

            Evil people in power will commit evil deeds, regardless of creed.

            A muslima I’ve been promised? Come on, you’re so ridiculously prejudiced it’s bordering disgusting.

            And really, if I love communism? Are you seriously that pathetic that you have to conflate a religious debate with a sociopolitical theory just to gain traction? No valid tractable points – better call him a commie.

            Nice one. Real classy.

            I’m not living in China or pakistan for very different reasons than you, I suspect. Unlike you, my career probably enables me to have the means to leave my village, but I enjoy my freedoms and democracy.
            China is a country that has an oppressive government who’s official stance is atheist with limited religious tolerance and massive levels of corruption.
            Pakistan is a country that has an oppressive government who’s official stance is Islamic with limited religious tolerance and massive levels of corruption.

            See something in common? It’s sure not the religion.

            I don’t live there, because I enjoy my basic civil rights. I enjoy having a say in my government.

            I don’t love communism, or Islam. Really, I have little opinion on either since I belong to neither movement.

            I don’t cram any view point down anyone’s throat, but I do call bigots out when they’re trying to spread hate for anything that isn’t just like them.
            That sweetheart, is you.

          • Anonymous

            I was right. This was a good laugh.

            Wiki. Did you edit it while you were searching for your cited sources?

            You’ve clearly displayed what you are, DARLING.

            You are the arrogant supremacist who is incapable of self reflection that believes your view is the only right view and you will use wiki to prove it. You are also most certainly cramming it down our throats. It was you who came here calling all of us Christian fundamentalists and crowing like a peahen about your superiority in all things.The majority of us on this site are unapologetic Atheists and you you’ve done nothing to prove your delusions of your superiority.

            Where, have I encountered such egregious hubris before?

            Oh, yes, I hear it every Friday afternoon from the tongue of the hodja bellowing out his weekly anti-Jewish, Christian and American tirade. He loves creatures such as yourself. You validate and encourage his hatred towards the truly persecuted minorities here. I hear it every time I go to market and I’m charged “gavur” prices. If you don’t know that word you will when you’re inducted into mo’s cult. It’s the “N” word for non muslims.

            Thank you for so grandly exposing what you are. If you are indeed some foolish kaffir I have no doubt you will become famous. I can see the headline now: “American convert to islam arrested during planned terror attack at busy mall.”

          • Scott

            You can easily see if I edited anything; but of course you know I did not :) But hey, feel free to throw in any other  ad-hominem in a desperate attempt to attack my credibility.

            Now I’m a supremacist? I’m pretty sure I just articulated how I am the exact opposite of that. If anything, I’d be an ‘equalist’. But hey, continue with the ad-hominem. It’s the playground of those unskilled in debate; which doesn’t come as a hell of a surprise if your origin truly is Turkey.

            I’m also pleasantly tickled that you called a pointed attack at an article and its author as an attack on all of you. You sound just like the pissed off little jihadists… It’s cute, and still oh-so-Orwellian with the double speak.

            I do actually pity you for being a non-Muslim in Turkey. You should move, if you are able.
            Having experience with Turks in particular in a country that has a large problem with poor Turkish immigration (Not the US) I can see why your perspective of Islam is warped. The poor Turks really are the bottom of the barrel. They’re a lot like the fundamentalist Christians of the US south. It makes a lot more sense now, and I’m truly sorry for the monster they have made of you.

            I love that you added in some theatrics about me converting to Islam (despite being a firm atheist my entire life) simply because I believe Muslims have the same rights as Christians, despite the fact that the extreme wings of both are bloodthirsty, ignorant killers. (And despite the fact that I believe in no God)

            But hey, if it makes the eyes in front of that small mind of yours light up with glee to make such pathetic swings at someone, carry on my new favorite bigot.

          • Anonymous

            Oh yes, Turkish bashing is okay then, right? And those lovely pakis are a okay, right?

            I doubt Asia Bibi who’s been sitting on death row in porkistan for two years for blaspheme would disagree with you and I have no doubt you would bash her over the head with your smug sense of (false) superiority.

            I am positive you would also call Faryal Bhatti, the Pakistani girl, who was brutally beaten for a “blasphemous” spelling error, an “ignorant racist who deserved what she got” if she dared to speak of pakistani musloids like you spoke about Turkish musloids.

            You also leave no doubts about how you would accuse angry native Thai Buddhists, who are being systematically slaughtered by musloids, of being racist, uneducated villagers.

            As I stated you are a supremacist with an agenda and you will attack any and all who disagree with you with your egregious hubris and twisted moral superiority. You are a carbon copy of every musloid apologist that repeats  the same supremacist, misogynistic, arrogant squeals and cites the same non-peer reviewed sources, regardless of ethnicity or geographic location.

            Despite your self deluded belief you are neither unbiased nor fair. Nor are you half as intelligent as you believe you are. Anyone who must repeat over and over how smarter, more clever, richer or more educated is doing so as a smoke screen. None of the truly intelligent people I know crow about it like you, or musloids do. The Stephen Hawkings of the world do not need to condescendingly, beat other people over the head with their own sense of intellectual superiority.

            You are a true liberal racist enabler or yet another musloid claiming Atheism while spewing dawa.

          • Scott

            hahaha! I’ll bash poor fundamentalist Pakistanis alongside the turks. That’s not what this debate is about. Since the inception of this argument, I have been decrying fundamentalism while defending moderates of either faith. You know this, you just don’t really have an argument. All you have is misguided hate.

            Fundamentalism, whether Christian, Islamic, or simply anti-Islamic as yours is, is quite simply wrong.
            You’re a racist, dear. You throw racial slurs around to downtalk a people that unfortunately treat you like a minority. Guess what, in Germany, Turks are treated exactly as you are treated in Turkey. I have witnessed it first-hand.

            Never once did I defend horrible actions, so your accusations thus are just *more* ad-hominem bullshit. The constant stream of hate-infused psychobabble blathering forth from your witless brain is droning on to the point of ridicule.

            Fortunately, here in the States, we don’t have to deal with a lot of poor Muslim immigrants. Most of them own businesses, and make damn good money – working for it. They don’t sit in chat-rooms and cry about their situation like your cry-baby ass. I’d trade 1000 of you for 1 of them in my country, because they actually contribute something.

            I dated a Persian girl in highschool, an American whos parents moved from Iran a year before she was born. Beautiful. She wasn’t wearing a burka, her parents didn’t hate me. Your hatred of Muslims is based entirely on a sad, narrow point of view based on the abuse you’ve suffered at the more ignorant of their hands; and as such, you have come to share their ignorance.

            Now I’m somehow a misogynist. You really are a joke, lady. A sad, worn out joke. What misogynist thing have I said thus far? What misogynist agenda have I pushed that you didn’t accuse me of completely without any backing merit?

            Of course I’m not unbiased. Who is? but I strive to be.
            And I am half as intelligent as I think I am. I’ve worked hard for everything I have, and I’m respected internationally within my field. I’ve had articles written about my work in a dozen languages. Have you?

            The claim that one who “must” (warning: conjecture) repeat over and over how much smarter, clever, richer, or more educated must be doing so as a smoke screen is a complete logical fallacy. You’d know this if you had any secondary education. Again, I’m sorry that’s probably difficult in your country.
            It could also quite simply be that the person is just smarter, more clever, richer, and better educated than you. Probably stemming from their open mind and eagerness to learn.

            You are right, I am beginning to feel like I’m a supremacist in a way. I have a very strong feeling of supremacy when looking at ignorant little bigots such as yourself. People who do nothing but spread misinformation and conjecture as truths with the agenda of belittling a people who persecuted them.

            Is the way you’re treated at home right? Hell no. It’s totally messed up.
            Is spitting lies about an entire religion/culture/race justified in that light? No. It simply means you’re no better than them.

          • Anonymous

            What is most telling about you is your utter hypocrisy. If anyone else were to say “I have a black friend(s) but I hate the ghetto culture.” You would be all over him or her for such a “racist statement!”

            Yet here you are telling us that because you have porkistani friends and dated an Iranian girl you are the end all and be all of expertise on all things islamic and anyone who disagrees with you is an “ignorant, racist bigot!”

            You attacked a race of people but it’s okay because you were only “criticizing fundamentalists.” Which brings us to the point of this whole ego stroke session of yours: You accused the writer fot he article and everyone who agrees with it a “Christian” and wished they would “burn in hell” despite your false claim of being an Atheist. I’m surrounded by a city of creatures such as you who claim to be Atheists but preach about how wonderful mohamamd was.

            You’ve provided no new arguments about the death toll between Christianity and islam. You’ve simply repeated (copy pasted) the same tripe that is found on every islamic supremacist site while spaning your own monkey over your own perceived genius. Sure, you’re so widely regarded in your field blah blah blah, that you cited WIKI instead of a vetted, peer reviewed scholarly thesis from the site of your institute of higher learning. It is also very telling that you refused to acknowledge the crimes that are being commited, as you type, against non-musloids “under the auspices” of islam.

            You’ve managed only to stroke your own flaccid ego while insulting an entire ethnicity of people, an entire country and little ol’ me. There is no “psychobabble” about creatures that must tear down others to inflate their own weak sense of self. You sound like every other strutting musloid peahen on the planet and it’s a wonder you haven’t completely tipped your hand and called me the requisite “hooker” or “stripper.” Misogyny is addressing women as “Sweetheart” in a condescending manner. You don’t know that because you were born into the tribe of misogyny.

            Even the most arrogant, self righteous liberals are not as abusive, arrogant or tunnel visioned as you and are willing to admit they have no real first hand knowledge of that which they criticize.

            You’ve made clear that you are no Atheist and your delusions of your own supremacy are just that: delusions. The inherent supremacy and racism of the ummah drips from every word you type and it’s obvious you’ve fooled no one but yourself.

          • Beejj

            Scott, I do not wish to intrude into your war of words with Istanbul Chick, but some of your comments embolden me to respond. Unlike you, I have not been an atheist all my life. I was raised a Christian. Correction: my parents and others TRIED to raise me as one, but while I did my best to believe the fairy tales I always felt I was betraying myself in doing so. I laugh at religion, though there have been times without number when tears were more appropriate. Without doubt, religions have spilled buckets of blood in the name of imaginary beings (Douglass’s “One and God make a majority” bears deeper thought than it usually receives), but I shake my head in wonderment when their apologists retort that atheists have done their share of murder and mayhem, too. This is an argument? This is a defence? This somehow squares the ledger?

            This might suggest that, like you, I view all religions equally, but such is not the case. Judaism is not what it once was. Christianity, too, has moved on (although the deeds of the papists in Rwanda and the spoutings of the toxic Mother Teresa lead one to think it might not have moved far enough). Islam? You claim that Muslims should have the same rights as Christians. That sounds fair on the surface, but why should a religion that has the death penalty for apostasy; that treats women as chattels; that promises rich heavenly rewards for murderers – oops, sorry – martyrs; that despises democracy; that applauds the killing of people associated with the publishing of a book; that would, if given the chance, deface every great work of Western Art as it has representations of the Buddha all along the Silk Road and elsewhere; that increasingly continues to do such things be treated as we would treat Christianity? Can you doubt that Islam seeks world domination? Should this ever come to pass, atheists like you and me will be smartly up shit creek without a paddle. You feel similarly threatened by Christians? I don’t.

            Smile at the beautiful Mount Rainier for me.

          • Scott

            Very excellently put questions.

            I feel the difference, is that the fundamentalist Islamists simply get more attention. I don’t think there are many fundamentalist Islamic states with the desire to take over the entire world, I think that is something that is simply attributed to them based on the fact that they are fundamentalist Muslims.

            You don’t hear a lot from Turkey regarding taking over the world. They somehow manage to stop themselves from marching a million men all over Israel and turning it into a field of dead bodies.

            To your point, there are *definitely* some states is the Islamic world with some real serious issues regarding encouraging Islamists to spread their religion by the sword, but they are a minority. Their populations support this. The *tiny* amount of terrorism going on in respect to the world Muslim population supports this.

            If you live in India, a real fear is being killed by a Christian terrorist (NLFT, MNCA), guilty of converting Hindus at gunpoint, or simply executing them for fun.
            If you perform abortions in the United States, you stand a real chance of being killed going to work, by a Christian terrorist.
            Orange Volunteers in northern Ireland. Fighting for King and Crown? No. Killing people attending Catholic churches.

            These people also want to spread their religion to the whole world. Especially the abortion doctor killers. They believe everyone else are idol-worshipping infidels. Sound familiar?

            The real difference, is simply the amount of people who aren’t poor in industrialized countries.
            Go to the south sometime. They honestly believe we should nuke the entire middle east (after we somehow put a shield around holy Israel). Poor, uneducated people are the danger. Not a faith.

            Islam currently houses the majority of the world’s poor, because the Christian world raped much of the wealth from it during the colonial period.

            The Islamic world was once a center for learning, and religious tolerance (Just look at Spain while the Muslims were in control, vs. the monarchy).

            The colonial era blasted most of the governments that had control over their fundamentalists out of existence. Look at Iran, Iraq, Palestine. Thank you, UK. Peaceful countries that had been for a thousand years. What happens when you create a power-void? The extreme take power.

            Here in the US, it would be no different: If some country came in today and wiped the US government off of the map, it would be the last day we had religious freedom in this country. I hope you understand that.

            So yes, I do feel just as threatened by Christians. Given an absence of someone to ensure the peace, I believe they would be just as vile as the current extremists of other faiths that are given free reign in their territories.
            But I do not blame their faith.

            Thank you for your civility.

          • Beejj

            Scott, thank you for your response. You touch upon so many matters that warrant consideration that it would be insulting of me to provide a knee-jerk reaction to them. I am bound to repeat, though, something I have written previously on this site, and which you doubtless have not seen. It concerns your reference to the “tiny minority” of Muslims who are hell-bent on murder (of non-Muslims and of Muslims of an unacceptable hue): A moderate Muslim is moderate until such time as he/she decides not to be moderate.

            Do you truly feel as threatened by Christians? You believe that all the tedious rigmarole to which we are now subjected at airports all over the world is partly due to immoderate Christians? Of course you don’t! Yes, there is no shortage of dangerous fruitcakes of the Christian persuasion – Dawkins refers to them as the American Taliban – who would gleefully murder medicos for performing abortions, but they are small beer compared with those who desire to explode bombs on aircraft and have television shows teaching children to hate Jews and who behead people on TV and torch Christian churches and refer to America as The Great Satan? You say that Christians are just as vile as the current extremists of other faiths, and that an absence of “someone to ensure the peace” would, if I take your meaning correctly, result in bedlam. What you seem to overlook, however, is that countries in which Christianity holds sway are all secular. Somewhere along the line Christians made it so. Muslims are not noted for such expansiveness.

            Please fill me in about the Christian world raping (sic) much of the wealth from Islamic countries during the colonial era. (While you are about it, google Churchill’s words about Islam [Churchill on Islam should do the trick].) Wondering aloud, he says, “Why is there so much poverty in oil-rich Islamic states?”

            I have never said that there are Islamic states wishing to take over the world. I said that ISLAM desires such an outcome. Don’t be sneaky, please!

          • Scott

            A human being is moderate until such time as he/she decides not to be moderate.
            Some things set people off.
            For the Irish, maybe your father was sniped in the street, and you decide to snap and blow up a Catholic church.
            For the Muslims, maybe the US dropped a bomb on your house.

            The only real difference I see, is the Muslims have innovated secular murder by including themselves as the casualty – but make no mistake, Christianity invented the concept of religious terrorism. They were at it back when the only Islamic state in the area’s ultimate governing code was secular. While the Ottoman empire was definitely no purring kitty, it was very evenly on contemporary ground with the Christian nations of the time.

            Right now, I can turn on my television, here in the states, and find a preacher, on TV preaching that Islam is evil, that they are “Satan’s own”.
            I’m sure it’s just as easy for someone seeking to sway Western opinion to find a similar thing in the Muslim world. I can’t judge their fate based on well selected clips, when I can find the same thing here at home from Christian fundamentalists.

            Why do we need to be molested to get on planes? Why don’t white (mostly Christian) people in India? They’ve killed far more Hindus in the past decade than Muslims have killed Americans, yet still no racial profiling at Indian airports… Why?
            The answer is simple. Control.
            Fear is control.

            Personal liberties were sacrificed not to help us stop terrorists, but to control the public. It is hard to decry war efforts when the cause is as noble as saving American lives (if you’re an American).
            When people decried false pretences that led to war, they were publicly decried by politicians as being un-American. As opening the US up to more terrorist attacks, despite the fact that more people had died in the United States in the year of 9/11 as the result of American on American violence than had died due to terrorism in the country’s entire history.

            Christian countries developed strict secular constitutions as a result of millennia of state control by the church, resulting in murder, persecution, and holy war. They didn’t do it because they thought it was a novel idea.
            And even to this day, those secular constitutions are breaking down faster than we can patch them up.
            Fundamental christians in the US, which do constitute an unhealthily sized minority, (enough to influence the electorate) are still fighting concepts of secular government, and enough of them are in congress to be emboldened to make public statements such as ‘There is no concept of separation of Church and State within the US Constitution’
            Bachmann, Perry. Look them up.
            Orwell says Hi, America. The double speak of religious fundamentalists, Islamic, Christian, or otherwise frightens me more than the radicals who enact the violent crimes.
            Waves of crime against Muslims swept this country after a few vocal fundamentalists in positions of great power started decrying their religion as evil. That they were all out to get us. It took us years to get anywhere near back to the status quo for Islamic relations in the US, which is quite frankly, much better than anywhere in Europe. I believe this is probably due to a higher percentage of not-so-poor immigrants.
            In Europe, we are seeing open religious intolerance as religious garb and structures are being banned.
            Can you imagine the outrage in the Christian world if one of those countries outlawed a Nun from wearing her habit?

            Regarding rape of resources, forgive me, I did not mean colonial era, I meant post-colonial era.
            APAC, AIOC, TPC ring any bells?
            Shame on Churchill for that comment. He knows very well why there was so much poverty. The British government was the controlling interest in the major oil companies that siphoned money out of those countries and caused outcry and push for nationalisation of oil resources, paying the government’s of those countries nearly nothing in taxes, while making massive cash concessions to ruling leaders for the rights. As I said, shame on Churchill.

            To finish this up,
            there was no sneakiness in my response to you.
            I assumed you meant Islamic states, or Islamists, not ISLAM, as Islam is a religion, a religion based on the very same tenets as Christianity and Judaism, and it most certainly desires no different outcome. It is up to the followers of a religion to determine its path.
            You blame Islam for the action of Islamists. A caste of people that didn’t even exist until Britain abandoned its Mesopotamian mandates at the outbreak of World War 2, which America subsequently funded dictatorships in that afforded them the most control, rallying the people to radicalize to fight it.

            Find yourself a picture of early 1970′s Egypt or Iran.
            Talk to me about the evils of Islam.

            It’s not ISLAM.

          • Beejj

            Brief response ……. Churchill’s words were written in 1899. Not much in the way of a petroleum industry existed at that time. Your history seems to be a bit … um … inventive. Shame on him? For telling the truth?

            I hadn’t realised that Christianity and Judaism have the death sentence for apostasy.

            Do you truly believe you can retain credibility when you tell us that what goes on at airports is nothing more than people control? That it has nothing to do with Islamic terrorism? Airport practices did not change after 9/11?

            Does your TV show programmes devoted to indoctrinating children to hate those of other religions? No, sir, you cannot find them, so please don’t suggest you can.

            “There is no concept of separation of Church & State within the US Constitution” I fear you have me at a disadvantage, here, because my knowledge of the Constitution is scant. I suspect, though, you are wrong, but I will have to leave this point to someone more informed than I. Sir Wilhelm, for example.

            “Waves of crime ……” Waves. That sounds quite apocalyptic. Strange that I seem to have missed all that.

            Must go ………

          • Scott

            I could find no reference to that particular quote of Churchill’s. I assumed it must have been made later in his life. However, I find it humorous, being Islamic States in 1899 didn’t know they had any oil.

            Oil was first discovered in the persian gulf region in the Qajar Dynasty of Iran, in 1906. Subsequently it was discovered in the gulf and it was realized that the Arabian peninsula was also very oil rich, but discovery and development there was delayed nearly 30 years.

            Perhaps he was talking about Sudan? He did serve in the war to reconquer Sudan from the secular Muslims that took over.

            Wait, no… Oil wasn’t discovered there until long after the British were forced to abandon the territory.

            Now I’m just confused. What Islamic countries was he talking about with booming oil reserves in 1899?

            I think one of us is definitely being inventive. Citation on that quote?

            Apostasy… you make me smile. :)

            “If your very own brother, or your son or daughter, or the wife you love,
            or your closest friend secretly entices you, saying, “Let us go and
            worship other gods” (gods that neither you nor your fathers have known,
            gods of the peoples around you, whether near or far, from one end of the
            land to the other), do not yield to him or listen to him. Show him no
            pity. Do not spare him or shield him. You must certainly put him to
            death. Your hand must be the first in putting him to death, and then the
            hands of all the people. Stone him to death, because he tried to turn
            you away from the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of
            the land of slavery. Then all Israel will hear and be afraid, and no one
            among you will do such an evil thing again”

            Ezekiel, 32:23-24

            The New Testament is of course very short on death sentences, so I won’t quote the few scriptures in it dealing with apostasy, since they’re only damning in the afterlife, not life life.
            That being said, the Old Testament sanctioned killing of apostates was certainly enough for the Catholics when the pope decided apostates would share the fate of heretics.

            There is definitely a dichotomy between then and now between the two religions (apostasy away from Christianity only gets you killed in north-east India and Uganda these days, but I was never arguing the evil of the practice, only that the practice did indeed exist in all 3 religions at points in time.

            And holy shit man – have you never heard of Pat Robertson?
            He’s an evangelist. On TV.
            You’ve resorted to making baseless claims simply because you can’t imagine them. I invite you to come to the states.
            I am glad that apparently such pro-christian and anti-islamic indoctrination hasn’t infected your TVs yet, but don’t presume that makes you somehow credible to comment on the TV programming of my country.

            Regarding separation of church and state, there most *certainly* is in the United States.
            I was not claiming there was not.
            I was claiming we now have prominent politicians on TV, in our Congress, who are stating that there is no such concept.

            “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”

            First amendment to the American constitution, passed along with the original constitution and bill of rights.
            Yet that doesn’t stop fundamentalist Christians (That have been *elected* into our *senate*) from saying publicly on television that we are a “Christian” nation (despite the fact that very few of the founders were Christian.) and that there is nothing preventing our government from having a role in religion.

            The point to that, was simply that fundamentalist Christianity has grown far more in power than you give it credit for. It’s like the British King coming onto TV and saying, “You know that Magna Carta thing? I’ve decided it’s no longer binding and I’m once again the absolute ruler of Britain by divine right.”

            Waves of crime. Indeed. Enough to cause banding together of state police departments and the federal government to prosecute it. Mosques burnt down here in Washington, Muslims being shot on the side of the street. Waves. Again with your ridiculous scoffing at arguments without any knowledge or research on the matter.
            I’m disappointed in you. I truly had you pegged as intelligent for a bit.

          • Beejj

            “The River War” published in 1899. I didn’t mention oil: you did.

            Ezekiel is my absolute favourite Book of the Bible. From beginning to end the Bible is a hoot, but with Ezekiel it hits the zenith (nadir?) of absurdity. “Dem bones, dem bones, dem dry bones…..!” Tell me, though (at this point I begin to wonder if you are, in truth, a mohammedan), does not the fact that you have to search the Bible for proclamations of death for apostates while such is the case at this very moment in the stygian world of Islam, tell you something? No? You believe Christians and Jews are so threatened? Christian & Jewish fatwahs are proclaimed for people such as myself?

            Indeed I know of the disgusting Pat Robertson and that other bloke – Falwell? Dross, the pair of them. Remember the evil they spouted after the hurricane hit New Orleans? Just like those muslim shitbags who rejoiced when the tsunami hit Japan, claiming it was Allan’s (sorry, Allah’s) punishment.

            What baseless claims have I made?

            I am bound to agree with you when you refer to those Americans who claim that America is a Christian nation (and God’s own country – that’s Australia [joke]). I nearly puked as I watched the inauguration of Obama – not because it was Obama, but because of the disgusting bullshit about god that polluted the proceedings. “God bless America” presidents are wont (forced?) to say when they conclude certain of their speeches. Sickening. Believe me, I loathe fundamentalist Christians with a passion.

            I cannot honestly say that your use of the word “ridiculous” when you refer to my reasoned responses to you causes me the slightest distress, but perhaps you are guilty of double standards – consider that which you have complained about to Istanbul Chick.

            I ask again for you to substantiate your claims of “waves of crime.” How many mosques were burned down? How many Muslims were murdered as a result of 9/11.

            Sorry you had me pegged as intelligent for a while. Whatever were you thinking, you silly, twisted boy?

          • Scott

            Alas, I cannot reply to your retort.

            The River War – I have read this book!
            I though Churchill was in fantastic traditional imperialist British are Superior to everyone mode – I loved it, seriously.

            Unfortunately though, you did say oil.

            And I quote, (you)
            ‘Wondering aloud, he says, “Why is there so much poverty in oil-rich Islamic states?”‘

            Where does he say that? Most certainly not in The River War, about an impoverished desert African nation with scant resources of any to mention.

            I will give you he had some interesting views of Islam based on that “War”, mostly because the Muslim who pronounced himself Shah was a pretty wicked warlord, though humorously enough for your argument, 100% secular as to administration of justice. He’s more on par with a little Hitler than one of your evil “mosloids”

            While I agree there is some nasty attention being brought against Muslim apostate persecution, I’d remind you that in the 2 largest Islamic states, apostasy is not illegal. 1.3 Billion muslims in the world. You’d judge them all based on the acts of 7 or so states comprising 10% to 15% of their population? Not to mention all the constituents of those countries with authoritarian leaders certainly don’t support the practice.

            There we go, “mohammedan”? Because I answered a challenge of yours?
            I’m beginning to wonder if you’re not Istanbul_Chick with slightly poorer vocabulary, just with the racial slurs turned down. Pathetic, man.

            And I quote, (you, again)
            “I hadn’t realised that Christianity and Judaism have the death sentence for apostasy.”

            Well, being Christianity and Judaism are religions, I answered the question literally, truthfully, and concisely: With a passage from the Hebrew bible.
            So no, the fact that I had to search for a passage in the bible with “Punishment for apostasy in judaism,” says nothing to me.

            However, your retort to that tells me something very important. Like the rest of your ilk, you’re eager to conflate the “World of Islam” with the actions of a fractional percentage of it that adhere to medieval laws, despite a contemporary majority preaching against those laws.

            You can find that preaching quite easily with just a little bit of searching. Unfortunately, it doesn’t sell well on Western media.

            Austin mosque firebombed September 2001
            shots fired at Toledo mosque September 2001
            man drives car into Parma mosque September 2001
            shots fired at Denton mosque April 2004
            Denton mosque firebombed September 2004
            El Paso mosque firebombed September 2004
            Springfield mosque burned down December 2004
            Glendale mosque burned December 2004
            Jacksonville mosque bombed December 2005
            Nashville mosque bombed February 2006

            That’s what 5 minutes of googling turned up.

            I do take solace in knowing one thing:
            You and your slimy racist buddies are thankfully still a minority.

          • Beejj

            Lord, you make me laugh. My replies have become “retorts”. Whereas you once referred to my civility, you now speak of me and my slimy racist buddies. You are cracking under the strain, old chap. Verily, thou ART a mohammedan!

            A contemporary majority PREACHING AGAINST THOSE LAWS????? Full marks for inventiveness and imagination!

            Again I ask, where, in the civilised Judaic and Christian worlds, is there a death penalty for apostasy?

            My reference to oil had nothing to do with my reference to Churchill’s pithy observation about mohammedanism. DO try to concentrate! (The “he” I referred to was me, you clot!)

            My vocabulary is inferior to that of Istanbul Chick’s? I have no problem with that, but the fact that you claim it to be so is very telling.

            How many mohammedans were killed by Americans in retaliation for 9/11?

            What was that about apostasy not being illegal ………?

            Finally, why do you call me a racist? What have I written that warrants such an appellation? Are you one of those who believes that Islam is a race?

          • Hellosnackbar

            We’ve had one or two like you on this blog before.
            Like most people with preprogrammed thought processes you conflate contempt of a dangerous,supremacist,totalitarian death cult with racism!!!
            You seem to believe that all religions who embrace some ridiculous Deity are ideologically similar and equally subversive;basking in your democratic condemnation.
            The fact is that empirical evidence supports the dogma as preached by Mohammedans, including world domination by any means(no Mohammedan will ever deny this as it it’s one of the so called five pillars Of of Islam).
            Several Mohammedans that I meet on a daily basis conduct their lives in a lawful way;but nevertheless live in a self imposed apartheid in ghettoes.They live this way because they are unable to impose their will in a way they desire.(several of the sillier ones preach their ideology in public and in their mosques)
            You should study their ways a little more closely Scott(eg Undercover Mosque on channel 4 available through google).
            Come back when you’ve done a little more research.

          • Anonymous

            As for your claims of all those fire bombings of and shooting at mosques, well, funny thing that, the ONLY websites that google pulls up are…islamic supremacist sites. No news reports, no blogs, no radio reports.

            There is one recent news report about a fire at a mosque:


            The main suspect is a musloid.

            The FBI statistics are clear: Jews are 7 times more likely to be victims of “hate crimes” than musloids, and gays are 6 times more likely and you’re going to get your panties in a twist over this one: Christians were victims of hate crimes more times than musloids! The FBI’s statistics also show that hate crimes agaisnt musloids are DECREASING.

            Actual news reports are interesting too. Of at least a dozen that I can recall off the top of my head the claims were either lies or perpetuated by the musloids themselves. Here are a few NEWS reports:




            These are just a drop in the bucket of the actual cases of FALSE claims of “islamophobia”

            You are very much like the white supremacists who cite other white supremacist sites as proof for their racist claims. However, I don’t know of any cases where the white supremacists claim being victims of hate crimes but are discovered to be the actual perpetrators.

          • Scott

            I don’t suspect my comment will make it past moderation, and I really don’t feel like retyping it, so I must bid you adieu; however, just a little time on google will corroborate my claims. I know you’re set in your disposition, but if you’re ever bored, maybe you should start searching for muslim preachings without any suffixed hate words. It might be informative for you; no insult intended.

          • Scott

            Anyway, I see you as someone who has real concerns and observations and opinions based on those bases. They’re legit, and while I’d love to debate them, You earned enough respect from me in your first post for me to close this debate as it’s already degraded to suspicion of sneakiness. I’m going to enjoy my evening, and I’ll read your post tomorrow. Thank you for giving legitimacy to your side, you’re completely unlike the psychobabble racial hatred I typically hear from people making your points.

          • Beejj

            Sneakiness? Bit touchy, are we? Come on, man, it was written as a mild joke.

          • SirWilhelm

            I must point out that there would have been no Crusades if Muslims had not conquered, and OCCUPIED, the Holy Land, in the first place, in the first wave of the Muslim attempt to conquer the world, which was only stopped in Europe at the Battles of Tours and Vienna. Many countries that are Muslim today, were created at that time because their populations were either converted to Islam, killed, or reduced to dhimmism so they could pay jizya and support the conquerers. It was that conquest that has set the stage for today’s conflicts over who should own, and occupy, that tiny strip of land that three relgions claim as their Holy Land. Even atheists should be able to acknowldege those historical realities. And everyone should be at least a little bit mystified, but especially atheists, over what is so important about that tiny strip of land? Only if you research far enough back in time, before it became the Promised Land, back to the days of the earliest civilizations, starting with the Sumerian, you will find that it was important to the “gods”, whoever they were. The place that became Jerusalem, was a headquarters, a command center for those entities. As hard as it might be to believe, the lands being fought over today, have been fought over for 6,000 years! Why? Even as an atheist, you must wonder who those entities were that were considered “gods” back then, and there is a lot of evidence they existed, as flesh and blood entities, because they interbred with humans. Is Alexander the Great not a historical figure, well documented? And yet he considered himself a demi-god, a son of a god, and his father suspected his wife of infidelity, with a “god”! You may not believe in God, or “gods”, but there are things in our histroy that are hard to explain without super-natural, or advanced technology, compared to humanity’s, at those times. I don’t belong to any religion, but I believe there is a lot about our histroy that has been forgotten, lost, destroyed, or modified, especially where religion is concerned, that relates to our conflicts today. If the truth were known, people may be less motivated to fight for their “gods”.

            You “don’t love communism, or Islam.” What do you love? Anything?

            Is it bigotry to point out the flaws in an ideology? And as an atheist, do you believe Islam is a religion? Have you considered the possibility that it is an ideology disguised as a religion? Through the Bible, Judaism and Christianity can trace their roots back to the beginnings of civilization. Abraham was a citizen of Ur, a Sumerian city, making the Jews heirs of that first civilization. What are the implications of that? Of the meaning of the Chosen People, since the Sumerian civilization was destroyed shortly after Sodom and Gommorah? Contrast that with the Quran, written around 600 AD, although the name of it’s “god”, Allah, can be traced to the Arab pantheon of ancient pagan “gods”, as their moon god. Whatever the tenents of Islam are, or are supposed to be, it is at war with Judaism and Christianity. Islamic “moderates”, are their home front, that supports their warriors, their fighters, everywhere, at all times. As there was no seperation of religionand state in ancient times, all wars were religious wars. Humanity is fighting a religious war today, between Allah and Jehovah and His Son, Jesus. As an atheist, you can remain neutral, or you can try to determine which side is on the side of right, if any, and support it. It’s apparent to me that Beejj, an atheist, has made that choice, correctly.

          • JEWHAWK

            “I am a 28 year old male, Caucasian liberal atheist, living in Seattle, WA, USA.”

            But I will call you a DAMN COMMIE.

            “You’re a modern day McCarthyist”

            YES. I AM A McCARTHYIST. I hate your ideology to death.

            “Muslims I know come off as so much more educated than you.”

            Indeed. Al Qaeda’s Al Zawahiri is a DOCTOR. Muslims even learned how to fly airliners, too…
            They also study engineering and chemistry to MAKE EXPLOSIVES, like IEDs, SHOE-BOMBS, SUICIDE-VESTS and even UNDERWARE BOMBS.

            So much for education, huh??

  • Scott

    As an atheist, I find both extremist Christians (you) and extremist Muslims (Jerk in article above) absolutely hilarious.
    You’re both so blatantly hypocritical that it makes my head spin. You engage in Orwellian double speak to advance a cause that is in perfect parity with the cause you oppose. Apparently Eastasia has always been at war with Oceania.

    In this post, you make a mockery of Muslim religious tolerance, while in you openly support the Christian analogue, which deserves the exact same mockery.

    You may not be a member of any of the Christian sects in the world that engage regularly in sectarian violence, but I would call your refusal to acknowledge their existence direct support of their cause (Only because you would call moderate Muslim silence on the issue the same)

    I personally hope that you all burn in your respective Hells.

  • Porky The Crusader

    Putain! That guy (Scott) is completely CRAZY…He’s the perfect example of moonslums ignorance, arrogance and stupidity.
    islam – a brain damaged war machine!

  • Porky The Crusader

    Muslim ( Scottdulah) are Natural Dumbass and not Happy People. Muslims (Scottdulah) are extremely Annoying cause they
    do othing but Lie and twist facts around to try to make Islam appear
    good and everything thing else seem Bad, so its nearly impossible to
    have a Decent conversation with a Muslim without getting Exasperated by
    the Insanity of what they are saying.