Obama adviser: Israel must give up its nukes

by Kal El on May 1, 2008 · 65 comments

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More appeasement from the lefties. Gotta love it!!!

JERUSALEM – Israel should give up its nuclear weapons to ensure Iran halts its illicit nuclear program, argues an adviser on nuclear issues to Sen. Barack Obama.

Joseph Cirincione, director of nuclear policy at the Center for American Progress, also previously dismissed reports Israel’s Sept. 6 airstrike targeted a Syrian nuclear reactor as “nonsense” and called Damascus’ nuclear program “miniscule.”

Immediately following Israel’s air raid, Cirincione listed “Israelis [who] want to thwart any dialogue between the U.S. and Syria” as among those spreading rumors Syria was constructing a nuclear facility.

Cirincione was commenting on a Sept. 13 Washington Post story about possible links between Syria and North Korea.

Wow this guy is a real genius!!! Because of him we now know that all we have to do is lay down our arms and muslim terrorists from Gaza, Lebanon, Syria, Iran et al, will stop targeting Israeli civilians and calling for the destruction of the Jewish State.

Read Aaron Klein’s article over on WND.

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  3. Israel: Forget U.S. intel, Iran nukes at full speed
  4. Syria trying to go Nuclear too?
  5. UN Nuclear Chief blasts Israel for bombing Syrian Nuke plant
  • Boyd

    OK, at the danger of possibly appearing that I might conceivably agree with the Nutbar… The Israelis do pretty danged good with their standard “blow them up go boom” devices. The Syrian reactor would be a case in point.

  • Andrew

    WHAAAT???? OK, we know Obama AND HIS STAFF are completely laughable but THIS?? This is stunningly stupid! You’d have to be beyond insane to think that A. doing so would be a GOOD idea and B. that it would have ANY affect on Iran doing or stopping anything! Unbelievable! Obama = the prophet of peace. Stunning!

  • http://www,traveLightgame.com carolyne

    Well Israel is wise to Obama and his infidel advisers, Wright, Ayers, Rezka, Michelle and the dumb ass mention in this report Circincione, what a hell of a name, what a hell of a guy?? Go figure??? “He’s like the heath in the desert, and cannot see when good comes.” Jer:17:6 Obama and friends, advisers (fools) worship a Muslim god (THAT IS THE god of this world, SATAN) which is quite different from the true believers in Christ who worship the ‘one true God in Christ Jesus our Lord and Saviour. “It is by our God’s mercy we are not consumed, because his compassion’s fail not. They are new every morning, therefore we HOPE in HIM!” Lam: 3:22-24 This HOPE is real, and we are to recall this to our minds, verse 21 says. Obama’s audacious hope, is little hope, rather no hope at all. It is ‘just words’ that really matter, and has he and his ungrateful wife said plenty. When is enough, enough, this is where we should draw the line in the sand. If you can’t see this, you are like the heath in the desert. Just blowing in the ‘wind of change,’ that American does not need or want. So blow wind, blow Obama & friends out of America to a different place in time, we cast those devil spirits out in the powerful name of Jesus Christ. God Bless America.

  • Para Trooper

    OBAMA is a closet MOSLEM. I will NEVER vote for a black moslem, not even for dog catcher. The imminent confrontation is coming, Iran is due, and it will be massive and ’round the clock. At the same time, Israel should hit every target worthwhile in Syria, followed up by armoured columns and mech infantry to root out the Hezzie’s and other radical moslems. A regiment or two of Paratroopers dropped in the Golan to secure river crossings for a linkup for a drive to [gulp!] DAMASCUS. Thats right. Let ‘em have it. Capture that camel jockey Assad and charge him with the murder of Hariri. Wat a wonderful dream…I don’t think a thrust through Lebanon is a dream, the Lebanese Army will be on the Israeli’s flank, driving a good way into Syria. Maybe then they will get the point.

  • RICHARD

    Sounds like a good start, that is if Israel truly wishes to have a lasting peace with Iran.
    Why should Israel be allowed to posses nukes and Iran can’t even buid a reactor for their energery program?
    There has been no evidence brought forth that iran is developing a weapons program.
    It is Israel who is making that claim.
    What about the Israel spy who was just arrested here for giving Israel secrets on some of our most advanced weapons systems!
    It is a proven fact that Israel has been selling those planes to China, and these are Americas best friend!
    Why, I wonder why it is that Jewish members of the senate and congress have duel citizenship.When the going gets tough, who and where are their loyalties going to be, with Americas interest, or Israels? There is a saying that one can not serve two masters, either they will prove true to the one, or false to the other.
    So, again I ask, why do they have duel citizenship?

  • Para Trooper

    Hey Richard, maybe Israel has nuclear weapons coz they are surrounded by millions of moslems. Why can’t Iran be allowed to possess nuclear weapons, or build a reactor? Because thier radical insane mullahs and thier psychotic Pres. have said over and over they want to destroy Israel. You have proof the Israeli’s are doing business with the PRC? The Chinese are developing thier own fighters, which don’t stand a chance against US warplanes. You must be anti-Israeli, which is ur choice, but the Israeli’s have to defend themselves EVERYDAY.

  • Para Trooper

    Vote for John Mc Cain. He has a solution to the moslem problem.

  • Billie R. Paxton

    Why should Israel be allowed to posses nukes and Iran can’t

    Why is it not a good idea to leave a fifth of whiskey and the keys to the car in the possession of an alcoholic?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

      Sorry Bill I accidentally hit the wrong thumb icon.

  • Frances

    Billie

    If you are unable to work that question out for yourself, you are either some billie goat of a mullah or you are completely brainwashed.

  • http://www.traveLightgame.com carolyne

    OH I COULD CALL BILLIE A LOT OF THINGS BUT I HAVE HAD SOME PERFECT PEOPLE TELL ME NOT TO CURSE. THEY ARE CONCERNED OF WHAT PEOPLE IN MY SMALL TOWN WITH SMALL MINDS MIGHT THINK OF ME.  LOL
    WELL THAT LEAVES OUT ANYTHING I WOULD HAVE TO SAY TO BILLIE. 
    ISRAEL IS TOO SMART TO FOLLOW OBAMA’S DREAMS OF A WORLD WITH NO NUKES EXCUSE ME ‘OBAMA’S WORLD’ NOW THAT HE HAS GONE TO EUROPE AND GOTTEN THEIR APPROVAL.  OBAMA IS AS INSANE AS YOU GET!  ISREAL IN THAT CASE BETTER GET MORE NUKES AND AIM THEM ALL AT IRAN, NO WAIT SAVE ONE FOR THE NEW WORLD LEADER – SHOOT IT FIRST.

  • Justin L

    no "government" in the middle east is sufficiently coherent, secular, or trustworthy to even justify its continued existence, let alone possession of nukes. that includes israel, iran, syria, egypt, jordan, SA, the UAE, india, pakistan, the new iraq, and others. and there is a simple and obvious logic behind the idea of disarming everyone, including israel.

    we need a coalition of developed countries to enter these countries and to provide an environment of civil liberties, free speech and open media, separation of church and state, and good secular education, for generations, before they'll be fit to self-govern. those civil liberties include protecting children's rights, including protecting them from religious harassment and brainwashing (something the US and other countries also need to work on), and all of the above includes israel, which is one of the biggest proponents of censorship and subversive back room deals on earth, which is part of why people are getting so annoyed with israel.

    note: you can oppose, disarm, and dismantle a government/regime/organization/movement/religion without murdering its people or otherwise harming them or holding prejudices against them.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

      Justin,
      Israel is the one last great hope for that region. Everywhere around that little sliver of freedom and democracy is a flurry of Islamic governments, many who would love to see Israel destroyed. For you to equate the blossoming free democratic government of Israel with the totalitarian Islamic regimes of the middle east who oppress and control their people, is rather naive. There is no moral equivalence between the values Israel holds and the totalitarian Islamofascist values taught by Mohammed and spread throughout modern day Islamic governments. Why aren't any government in the region standing up and defending Israel while Iran continues to threaten their very existence? IT's because they silently agree just like all other so called moderate Islamist governments.

      Your dreaming if you think somehow all these Islamic dominated governments will somehow someway someday share the same values that the west has held dear for hundreds of years.

      • Justin L

        "Israel is the one last great hope for that region" – israel and the US have a profound destabilizing effect on the region. their presence is unwelcome by all, and without it, nearly 100% of conflict-related loss of life could be avoided.

        "the blossoming free democratic government of Israel" – the fact that israel runs some of its internal affairs by vote is great, and I hope they continue doing so when they're finally moved to a more sensible location, but that has nothing to do with the acceptability of their conduct in dealing with others.

        "There is no moral equivalence between the values Israel holds and the totalitarian Islamofascist values taught by Mohammed" – morality is subjective, and there is a strong similarity in their goals and tactics. though, israel is more prone to interfering with third parties in the form of lobbying, propaganda, and censorship, which is a big part of why they tend to make bitter enemies around the world.

        "Why aren't any government in the region standing up and defending Israel while Iran continues to threaten their very existence? IT's because they silently agree just like all other so called moderate Islamist governments." – for starters, this "existence" line is just dishonest. people constantly defend israel by trying to compare their opposition to nazis, suggesting everyone who opposes israel must support genocide. israel is not in a fight for its existence in the sense of facing genocide. however, jewish/british/american possession of that land is in dispute, yes, and for obvious and logical reasons.

        also, I hate to break it to you, but it's not just that particular region opposing israel. it's almost everyone on earth but the US and britain. and for the most part, they're not silent about it, you just don't hear much dissent in the US. the US and britain are flooded with propaganda to the effect that no matter what israel does, what the situation is, all you need to know is that the poor jews were persecuted by the nazis, and therefore if anyone questions israel it's just more of that nazi evil doing. that sad defense is laughable, and for the rest of us, who are free to apply reason and logic, there are serious problems with islam, christianity, judaism, and all other faiths when applied to government policy, particularly where the military is concerned.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

          Of course the Jewish state is unwelcome there. Muslims want an all Islamic Middle East. Not everyone on earth is against Israel, not even close.

          Israel will be in a fight for its existence as soon as its neighbors get better military equipment.
          Save the all is equal nonsense at the end there for some place else. Islam is the worldwide threat, not Judaism or Christianity.

          • Justin L

            nobody is trying to put jewish people in gas chambers. the only people who talk about that irrelevant historical reference, and ad absolute nauseam by the way, are the jews and their supporters. for everyone else, it's a conflict over land ownership, and the hardest line against the jews is forcing them to leave.

            also, the muslim agenda isn't to take over america, it isn't to force britney spears to put on more clothes, it isn't to force muslim doctrine into american schools, that's just hysteria and propaganda, designed to equate muslims with "commies" to justify further invasion of their countries.

            the muslim agenda is getting israel and the US out of THEIR countries. no more CIA coups and assassinations, no more assistance for particular regimes and sanctions or worse for others, no more puppet governments giving ridiculously generous contracts to american oil and construction companies. they want america to play by the rules, peacefully offering deals, having to compete fairly and peacefully alongside china, russia, and everyone else, according to the free market economics that america claims to advocate.

            in short, islam is only a threat to the extent that you insist on asserting control in the mid-east by force.

          • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

            The Muslim agenda is to take over the entire world, including America. Islam is being taught in many of our schools, do you follow this issue at all, or do you just hate Israel? I would not be surprised if you were another Muslim playing games here.
            Islam is a threat to the world, all one has to do is LOOK at Europe to see that. Of course the US should treat different regimes differently. According to you we should treat our enemies like we do our friends. That is flat out stupid.
            China and Russia know how to deal with the Islamic problem within their countries. You really do not know what you are talking about.
            It also does not matter that no one is trying to put Jews in gas chambers. They are being driven out of the Middle East. That is one of the Islamic goals.

            Look at the horrid treatment of Jews throughout the Middle East. Not only were Jews horribly persecuted throughout the Middle East, they were murdered and tortured and driven from their homes. The majority of the Muslim Middle Eastern Jews lost their possessions, and had to flee to the fledgling state of Israel in order to defend themselves from Muslim/Arab persecution. 820,000 Jews were driven out of Muslim countries, with about 600,000 of them taking refuge in Israel. But, being in Israel hasn't protected either Christians or Jews from further Muslim/Arab attacks and persecution. In 1948 and 1956 and 1967 and 1973, combined Muslim/Arab armies, attempted to destroy Israel and murder all of Israel's Jews. These large Muslim/Arab armies' only reason to make war against Israel was because of religious intolerance and racial hatred against Jews. If you ask "moderate" Muslims today if they would want to see the Jews of Israel destroyed, many would say "yes"! Loving, kind and peaceful doesn't seem to match the behavior of the so called "moderate" Muslim/Arab world.

            Here is a table showing how many Jews lived throughout the Muslim/Arab Middle East, and how many were driven out, losing all of their homes, businesses and possessions to "moderate" Muslims.

            * In 1948 Algeria had 140,000 Jews. Today, less than 100.
            * In 1948 Egypt had 75,000 Jews. Today, less than 100.
            * In 1948 Iran had 100,000 Jews. Today, around 25000.
            * In 1948 Iraq had 150,000 Jews. Today, around 35.
            * In 1948 Lebanon had 20,000 Jews. Today, less than 100.
            * In 1948 Libya had 38,000 Jews. Today 0.
            * In 1948 Morocco had 265,000 Jews. Today, around 5,500.
            * In 1948 Syria had 30,000 Jews. Today, less than 100.
            * In 1948 Tunisia had 105,000 Jews. Today, around 1,500.
            * In 1948 Yemen had 63,000 Jews. Today, less than 200.

          • Justin L

            I certainly wouldn't call islam "loving, kind and peaceful"

            in fact, I think that islam is even more tyrannical and terrifying than christianity and judaism, but I would address all 3 the same way: by minimizing causes of violence, and by trying to defend children against religious indoctrination, which would eventually eliminate these malignant ideologies, without shedding blood.

            I think you need to learn about islam, though. muslims see all wars and most aspects of life as being subject to their religion, just like a christian society taking its "morals" and practices from the bible, so in that sense, any war with muslims is a holy war. however, beyond that, the movement to attack america isn't really a holy war, and the point of the attacks isn't to impose islam on america. the point is to end america's interference in the middle east. the point is to convince america to stop doing things in muslim nations that america would consider an act of war on its own soil.

            also, people resent israel for a lot of reasons. to name a few: lobbying, pressuring and co-opting third parties, campaigns by israeli groups to impose censorship on third party nations, and most importantly, the fact that israel is an artificial state, and that there is far far more bloodshed in the region with israel there.

        • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

          Israel and the US have a profound destabilizing effect on the region.

          Wrong, it is the rabid dog nations around them who won't let them Israel live in peace. They've tried several times, and they've failed time and time again. I don't see Israel threatening or invading their neighbors like other Arab countries have tried to do to them. The only reason Israel is still standing is because of the pathetic attempt by the Arab world to overrun them completely failed. If, during the era of independence, all of the middle east countries were able to become independent, then why couldn't Israel? So called "Palestinians" are simply Jordanians who refused to allow Israel to become it's own independent state, and then gave themselves a name called "Palestine", and claims Israel "oppresses" them even though "Palestinians" want nothing but to destroy Israel. If Israel wanted to destroy them, they'd be gone a long time ago.

          so when they're finally moved to a more sensible location, but that has nothing to do with the acceptability of their conduct in dealing with others.

          Do you even realize what you're saying or do you just sap up all the propoganda Al Jazeera and BBC feeds you? Isreal is not going anywhere. Do you not realize that Arab states around Israel would not flinch a bit if Israel were completely destroyed? And you complain about Israel's conduct? SHAME ON YOU. They WANT peace, what don't you get about that? They WANT to have normal relations with those who want to wipe them out. Israel could have destroyed everyone around them YEARS ago but they've chosen to remain civil (too civil IMO) to establish a sense of peaceful coexistence with those around them. You're drinking the koolaid, my friend, open your eyes to what's realy going on. Read a history book, for heaven's sake.

          which is a big part of why they tend to make bitter enemies around the world.

          Wow, so it's now Israel's fault that everyone hates them? You don't think it has anything to do with the ideological implications of mainstream Islamic governments and institutions, and the effect that has when a non-muslim settles next door? You sound like a typical leftist lunatic who has no clue about Islam, or the history of the Middle East.

          this "existence" line is just dishonest.

          How? The Arab infested UN helped mandate the state of Israel in 1948. There were a few wars, and Israel was able to defend itself from annihilation by the Arab states. I'm not saying you support genocide if you oppose the "existence" of the Israeli state, but you act like a freaking hypocrite when you complain about so called Israeli "atrocities" yet could care less that another country is threatening to completely obliterate them time and time again. You can debate who the land belongs to all day long, but when people start threatening genocide, don't sit there and defend evil just because it goes in-line with your absurd agenda of relocating Israel

          it's not just that particular region opposing israel. it's almost everyone on earth but the US and britain. and for the most part, they're not silent about it, you just don't hear much dissent in the US.

          Wrong again, Justin. You live in a world of leftist marxist indoctrination and you ideals align directly with the totalitarian Islamic system. Why aren't you more concerned with the human rights violations of almost EVERY Islamic state in the world.

          and for the rest of us, who are free to apply reason and logic, there are serious problems with islam, christianity, judaism, and all other faiths when applied to government policy, particularly where the military is concerned.

          Sorry, but you don't have a clue about reason or logic. It's actually REALLY simple. You don't have a clue about world history, and don't have an ounce of knowledge of what Islam teaches, do you? Please go read Islam 101 or something before you make such crazy, yet typical leftist indoctrinated talking points. It's funny how radical leftist marxist athiests claim they "oppose" all religion, yet pretty much ALL their focus falls right onto Christians and Jews (and Western civilization), couldn't care less about the obvious everyday atrocities of Islamic governments and Islamic culture, and willfully claim they hate all religion, but do nothing to oppose the biggest violating religion of human rights in the world. The truth is, your focus is NOT on banning all religion or whatever it is you said before. IT's about opposing the greatest civilization in the history of the world that stands for liberty, democracy, capitalism, political freedom, and separation of religion and state. You should be bending over backwards to defend those values against the haters of Freedom within the Marxist/Islamic alliance

          • Justin L

            "Wrong, it is the rabid dog nations around them who won't let them Israel live in peace." – they're rapid on both sides, but the problem is that one rabid dog has been shoved into a tiny cage with another, quite unnecessarily. if you want them to live in peace, stop spending 20 billion/year and massive military resources to keep this dog fight going by shoving them into each others faces. there's plenty of room in the US for the entire population of israel to be given land, and that would solve everything peacefully.

            "Isreal is not going anywhere." – US influence is on a rapid decline, and the country of israel is an extension of US dominance over the region and world, so we'll see about that.

            "They WANT peace, what don't you get about that?" – taking what you want without facing consequences is a concept familiar to everyone.

            "Wow, so it's now Israel's fault that everyone hates them?" – yes. for example, the israeli lobby is the largest lobby in the US. by definition, they're buying influence behind the scenes, and at the same time, open discussion about the subject of israel is squashed in all political forums. that's deeply and fundamentally anti-american, and that sort of behavior would be frustrating no matter who was doing it. we wouldn't put up with muslims doing that, we wouldn't tolerate it from china, russia, or europe. israel, as always, is not an exception, even if your response is to cry "bloody nazi murder!!"

            "yet could care less that another country is threatening to completely obliterate them time and time again" – if "obliterate" means killing innocent people then I do care, it's never acceptable. but if you're talking about trying to reverse the very poor decision to establish israel, then I support the idea, I think it's necessary and logical.

            "but when people start threatening genocide" – nobody is talking about genocide here but US and jewish propagandists who bring that moot slogan into the debate to try to misrepresent their opposition. even the most hard lining anti-israeli would be more than happy to sit back and peacefully let the israelis leave, alive and well. in fact, if america withdrew its support but offered land, and the jews began to exit israel out of necessity, there wouldn't be some desperate attempt by neighboring states to commit genocide while they still had the chance. there would be parties in the streets, hand shaking, and a cheerful goodbye. not literally, obviously, but they would be satisfied, and the region would be a lot closer to being able to live in peace.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

            Don't have time for a long response,but here's a couple questions for you

            You don't think Iran is threatening genocide? Again, you must not read the news, Justin…
            If you think "relocating" Israel is realistic, do you realize the logistic implications to what you're talking about? Please tell me how that would work froma realistic standpoint and not some fantasy dreamworld theory. What's realistic to me, is the only way the Jews will leave Israel is if they are annihilated. They will never willingly leave. They have lost too many lives and defended too much. Arab countries around them have tried before, and failed miserably. Iran is next in line to make the attempt. And annihilation is entirely possible. All it takes is one nuke.

            From what you say it sounds like you are hoping Israel "goes somewhere" else, when you say "we'll see about that". That's scary

            btw, I agree with you about all the money we're giving Fatah (Hamas) every year. There should be NO money going to any group of people who teach children to blow themselves up.

            I appreciate your intellectual argument, but I think you need to inject a huge piece into this argument, and that is how Islam works. Think about it, read about it, educate yourself on what groups like the Shia in Iran believe about the return of the Mahdi and that sect of Islam. Read about Sunni influenced Jihadism that's spread all over the middle east and originated in Iran and now exists all over in Egypt, Jordan, Hamas, Pakistan, Afghanistan, UAE, North Africa and others. Read about what it Jihad means. Read the so called "moderates" language when they speak.

            There's a big piece to this conversation that is lacking and I think if you had more knowledge of World History and Islamic teachings, you would better understand the Israeli/Pali situation.

          • Justin L

            your stance seems to consist of claiming:

            1) anyone who opposes israel is a genocidal nazi
            2) anyone who opposes israel supports islam
            3) anyone who opposes israel is ignorant of history
            4) the jews automatically have to get what they want

            none of the above are true

            I'm not a genocidal racist. I don't favor islam. I don't favor the arabs. but I do see the establishment of israel as a poor and dangerous decision, and I'd like to separate the two warring parties.

            in fact, I hate islam with a passion. I would tear down every mosque, burn every quran, and make it a crime to teach islam to children.

            though, I'd handle christianity and judaism the same way.

            anyway, the government that america installed in iran is nowhere near having the capacity to pose a threat, and whether they'd nuke israel if they could has nothing to do with what I or any other third party would propose. if you can only defend israel by making false accusations about would-be holocausts then you have no defense, and you're tacitly acknowledging that israel can not be rationally defended.

            also, I know all about the history. in fact, I suspect there was a time in ancient history when jewish people were in the land now known as israel, just as millions of native people once controlled north america. also, I'm well aware of the role that jewish infiltration and manipulation of third party nations played in the crusades, and I see the bloodshed over modern israel as yet another century of horrific consequences for jewish fanaticism.

            in answer to what you said about israel "going somewhere else," how about you drop the not-so-subtle gas chamber references? because the only person with genocide on the tip of their tongue here is you.

            I explicitly described moving the israelis to america as a solution. as for how that would work, well let's start by considering that it was possible for war-torn britain to assist the jews in annexing the land and moving there in the first place, so do you really think that modern day america couldn't do the same in the other direction? america has a pretty impressive navy, lots of cargo planes. in fact, they have 1.4 million troops and many service workers who are constantly being moved around and who are supposed to be ready for rapid redeployment, so I would estimate that israel's population could be shipped to america in a few weeks. I imagine that israel's neighbors and many third parties would be happy to lend the assistance of their ships and planes, to finally see an end to this nightmare, too.

            so logistics aren't the issue, the only real problem is jewish fanaticism. and yes for the 10th time, islam is also horrible, and also full fanatics. but anyway, israel is currently only held together by america's might, and so I would propose a multi-stage handling of the situation:

            stage 1: complete WMD disarmament of israel and all of its neighbors.
            stage 2: offer land elsewhere, transportation to it, and colonization resources for any of israel's citizens who will go willingly, and continued protection of israel while they leave.
            stage 3: stop funding or providing weapons to anyone in the region, including whatever jewish presence refused to leave. also, impose a trade embargo on all warring nations including israel, until matters are settled, so as not to be made a tool of violence.

          • Justin L

            "Wrong again, Justin. You live in a world of leftist marxist indoctrination and you ideals align directly with the totalitarian Islamic system. Why aren't you more concerned with the human rights violations of almost EVERY Islamic state in the world." – I'm not a leftist, and I fundamentally oppose all religions, particularly islam. I don't think of religion is an inalienable human right, I think of it is a dangerous disease, and its continuation as a violation of children's rights. I'm also deeply concerned by the conditions in many muslim countries. however, the fact remains that the jewish and american presence in the mid-east is unnecessary and is a cause of much bloodshed. also, I stand by my assertion that the world almost unanimously opposes israel. look at the US veto history in the UN. the majority of their vetoes have been used to block anti-israel resolutions. also, if you look at the votes on any resolution opposing israel, it's generally only israel, britain, and the US voting against, thus the need for the veto.

            "Please go read Islam 101 or something before you make such crazy, yet typical leftist indoctrinated talking points." – islam is horrible, but horrible as it is, the mid-east could be living in peace with it for now, and we could use peaceful means to educate and slowly de-brainwash them.

            "It's funny how radical leftist marxist athiests claim they "oppose" all religion, yet pretty much ALL their focus falls right onto Christians and Jews (and Western civilization), couldn't care less about the obvious everyday atrocities of Islamic governments and Islamic culture, and willfully claim they hate all religion, but do nothing to oppose the biggest violating religion of human rights in the world." – american and jewish involvement in the mid-east is THE major cause of conflict and bloodshed, but islam is horrible. it's the most oppressive religion of the big 3, and as far as civil liberties go, muslim nations warrant far more attention and pressure to change.

            "The truth is, your focus is NOT on banning all religion or whatever it is you said before. IT's about opposing the greatest civilization in the history of the world that stands for liberty, democracy, capitalism, political freedom, and separation of religion and state." – I do support the original america, which was founded on those concepts. modern america is the diametric opposite of those things, though. modern america is an oppressive theocracy, it's heavily censored, the political system offers little choice or voice for the public, the government is dominated by special interests, and on their behalf it can be terrifying in its use of force against its own citizens and the world. however, america is relatively benign compared to most muslim countries, and america does have a relatively free market, with less marxist/socialist/regulatory fascism than most of its economic and technological peers, and I admire that, as I'm strongly right wing when it comes to economics.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

      What a fantasy. They will not allow that.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

      Justin L wrote,

      we need a coalition of developed countries to enter these countries and to provide an environment of civil liberties, free speech and open media, separation of church and state, and good secular education, for generations, before they'll be fit to self-govern. those civil liberties include protecting children's rights, including protecting them from religious harassment and brainwashing (something the US and other countries also need to work on), and all of the above includes israel, which is one of the biggest proponents of censorship and subversive back room deals on earth, which is part of why people are getting so annoyed with israel.

      This might be the most naive post that I have ever read. Do you really think that Islamic countries are going to allow non-Muslims in there and change their entire way of life? Right they are going to start separating Mosque and state all because some infidels told them to….

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

      Justin L wrote,

      we need a coalition of developed countries to enter these countries and to provide an environment of civil liberties, free speech and open media, separation of church and state, and good secular education, for generations, before they'll be fit to self-govern. those civil liberties include protecting children's rights, including protecting them from religious harassment and brainwashing (something the US and other countries also need to work on), and all of the above includes israel, which is one of the biggest proponents of censorship and subversive back room deals on earth, which is part of why people are getting so annoyed with israel.

      Do you really think that Islamic countries are going to allow non-Muslims in there and change their entire way of life? Right they are going to start separating Mosque and state all because some infidels told them to….

      • Justin L

        No, I don't think their existing governments/militias/"royal" families/gangs would allow it. Fortunately, we have the technology and resources to easily overcome them. In many cases, like Israel, SA, Kuwait, the governments are essentially just proxies for US power, and that power is on a rapid decline, so change is inevitable.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

          Obviously we are not overcoming them easily.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

      If Israel disarms, Muslims will not. That is obvious to anyone with common sense.

      I see that more and more Europeans are seeing the ugly truth about Islam and have started to support Israel.

      • Justin L

        nobody in the region wants to be disarmed, but it has to be done, with no exceptions, including israel, including iran.

        though, that's not to say that establishing yet another puppet regime in iran and giving privatization contracts to american companies would be anything but the usual corrupt, self-serving imperialism that puts the american people in the crosshairs of more and more bitter enemies.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

          The biggest and most important aspect of this conversation that you leave out is that Islamic governments ruled by the Sharia will never disarm. You fail to understand both sides to this argument. I would love to see a your peaceful utopian vision of the world fulfilled where everyone disarms, but it's a FANTASY. So can we get real and talk about practicalities now?

          Islam's goal is the Caliphate. If you don't understand the Caliphate, please look it up. Iran's version of Islam (Shia) awaits the return of the Mahdi (12th Imam), but the Mahdi can only return "to save the world after the destruction and chaos". Hmm, sound familiar? Iran threatening destruction and chaos in Israel time and time again doesn't concern you? You seem to equate everything the west has done to the evil perpetrated by inhumane Islamic totalitarianism. Sunni's also have a similar belief where the whole world should be converted to Islam, live under an Islamic system as dhimmi's, or die upon refusal. That is what we are dealing with here.

          This conversation will never advance to a better understanding until you start studying the real issues here. The real issue is not Western civilization bullying 3rd world Islamic countries. The issue is standing up to, and eliminating the Islamic threat to the Western World, the greatest civilization in the history of mankind. Islam wants to destroy everything the west has stood for throughout the course of history.

          Please step outside the leftist indoctrination and think for yourself for one minute. You will find more information about this subject than you ever imagined.

          • Justin L

            clearly you're either diverting over and over with irrelevant and undisputed points about how horrible religion is, or you're dishonestly trying to misrepresent me as being in support of religion.

            so I'll reiterate for the Nth, pointless time: islam is terrifying, islam is horrible, islam wants to control the world by force, just like judaism, just like christianity.

            however, that being said, I'll reiterate this, too:

            america and israel have not been randomly singled out as targets in a muslim plot to take over the world. the conflict is a response to actions carried out over the last century by the US, israel, and britain in the middle east. it has nothing to do with theoretical goals of world domination by islam.

            islam is horrible and dangerous, just like christianity, but america and israel have made themselves special targets of a mobilized and militant islam by injecting a jewish state into the muslim corner of the earth, and by carrying out countless assassinations, coups, bribes, defenses of brutal regimes, sleazy no-bid contracts, and worse, on other peoples soil.

            in fact, there's a fundamental racism and bigotry in the typical american point of view. the unspoken belief that arabs are second class world citizens and the idea that their owning land or voting is just silly. as if white nations are inherently superior and are entitled to roll into any arab nation doing whatever they please, and if the people of that arab nation respond exactly the way americans would, you gawk at the arrogance of "those people" to question your might and right, and to have the audacity and utter lack of moral character to use force against the master race.

            here are some facts that may help to put things in perspective:

            * america has been significantly militarily involved in the mideast for the better part of a century.
            * america was not a target of any violent muslim movement before or for most of that time.
            * america has deposed and replaced many governments in the mideast over the last century.
            * america has squashed numerous civilian uprisings in the mideast, keeping despots in power.
            * america supported the shah of iran and saddam hussein for many years.
            * america continued to support saddam hussein after he gassed hundreds of kurds.
            * america has pumped billions of barrels of mideast oil from countries controlled by dictators.
            * the world has voted against israel at the UN many times, and the US unilaterally vetoes it down.

            the situation here is that america refuses to leave the other side alone. america is picking the fight here, on an ongoing basis. it's not a historical issue that the other side won't let go. it's not something harmless that americans would happily tolerate on their own soil.

            if you were to apply anything even resembling the golden rule, here, or to even rationally imagine its application, you'd have to recognize that you're expecting other people to put up with things that you yourself would probably feel was a call to war, and you're blaming them for doing exactly what you would do.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

            This conflict was going on before the US even existed. Christians are not looking to nuke America nor are they looking to impose a set of barbaric laws on the world. Those that blame America for this conflict are either America haters or Muslims.

            Yes the Arab world is second class compared to the West. Like I said you might just be a Muslim playing games, trying to garner support to get Israel to disarm.

            "JustinL" said,
            america was not a target of any violent muslim movement before or for most of that time.

            That is flat out wrong.
            http://islaminaction08.blogspot.com/2008/09/islam

          • Justin L

            "This conflict was going on before the US even existed." – yes, for millennia, zionists have been entering third party nations under the guise of seeking a home and a place to do fair business, and then using subversive tactics to force involvement on behalf of israel. I don't support what happened to the jews in WW2, but it was a direct response to the same secretive, subversive thwarting of free speech and democracy that israeli interests are still carrying out today in the US.

            this has been an ongoing problem with certain segments of the world's jewish population, for millennia, where they tirelessly invade innocent third party countries under false pretenses, posing as friends, but serving a militant agenda. they come bearing gold, jewels, and other gifts, to buy influence in politics and key business sectors.

            slowly but surely, over the course of literally thousands of years, zionist missionaries have made enemies in every corner of the world, and sadly, the jewish people as a whole are often blamed and hated as a result. though, that's no accident. a major tool of zionist propaganda is to embed themselves in the jewish population, using innocent jewish people as political human shields.

            it's political guerrilla warfare. co-opted populaces are trained like dogs to see any attack on the political movement of zionism as a racist attack on the jewish population in which zionist militants hide themselves.

            "Yes the Arab world is second class compared to the West." well at least you're open about your beliefs. most americans talk as if they believe in racial equality, and then operate politically as if the arabs are inherently less entitled to the autonomy and freedom that americans enjoy.

            can you name a muslim terrorist attack that occured on american soil prior to the 1990s?

            here are a few of the many acts of war carried out by the US:

            Iran – 1953 – The CIA orchestrated the overthrow of democratically elected Mossadegh and restored the Shah to power.

            Lebanon – 1958 – The US navy supported an Army occupation of Lebanon during its civil war.

            Indonesia – 1965 – The CIA orchestrated a military coup.

            Oman – 1970 – Marines landed to direct a possible invasion into Iran.

            Libya – 1981 – American fighters shot down two Libyan fighters.

            Lebanon – 1982-84 – Marines occupied Beirut during Lebanon's civil war; 241 were killed in the American barracks and Reagan "redeployed" the troops to the Mediterranean.

            Iran – 1984 – American fighters shot down two Iranian planes over the Persian Gulf.

            Libya – 1986 – American fighters hit targets in and around the capital city of Tripoli.

            Iran – 1987-88 – The United States intervened on the side of Iraq during the Iran-Iraq War.

            Libya – 1989 – Navy shot down two more Libyan jets.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

            John he might even be a Muslim posing as a non-Muslim.

        • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

          Utter nonsense. If Israel disarms the Islamic countries will still build nukes. Your goal is obvious.

          • Justin L

            well for starters, israel isn't willing to be disarmed either, but again, I'm talking about forcing all sides to disarm, whether they like it or not.

          • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

            You are talking about using military force, which is what you blame for the conflict in the first place.

          • Justin L

            that is an excellent point. though, I would propose operating through the UN. at this point, america absolutely should not be firing so much as a shot anywhere near the mideast.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    Israel should never give up their nukes and Muslims should never be allowed to obtain them.

  • peter

    If israel gave up their nukes five minutes later you would have every arab state on its doorstep with a large knife,it is these deterents that give isaelis the only edge they have,do you believe muslims would not use nukes if they had them instead of those home made rockets and second hand russian katushas,they are the only people living on earth that would do this without a second thought! and everyone knows it,thats why in this lfe,you can poke fun at any other religion,try doing that with the muslim!!,i believe they are at the time of martyrdom off thier heads with fear,headless chickens showing off thier bravery to others,do you believe they have thought about being turned in mincemeat to decorate the walls and floor,i dont think so!!hypnotised,brainwashed,doing what is expected of them without a thought because they are surounded by like minded people who dare not show fear,if they were given a choice at the last minute and protection from muslims,they would run a mile,

  • Infidel_Tabatha

    Words fail me.

    • JEWHAWK

      Tabatha,I believe that FAITH will save Israel:

      Faith in God allmighty;

      Faith in BRUTE FORCE.

  • Infidel_Tabatha

    Words fail me.

  • JEWHAWK

    Tabatha,I believe that FAITH will save Israel:

    Faith in God allmighty;
    &
    Faith in BRUTE FORCE.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

    I am almost positive it's because allah is on sabbatical. As per belladonaja's wishes, he still has not made the time to humiliate me. I am almost offended. Key word being, almost :P

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    Allah is doing such a great job with the failure of the Islamic world.

    Islamic terrorists are attacking non-Muslims across the world. You might want to try and educate yourself on the subject.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

    "SAY WHAT YOU WANT BUT WHAT ALLAAH DECREES IS WHAT WILL HAPPEN"

    Then I guess by your logic, allah has decreed that Gaza be reduced to rubble, and their daily rocket jihad against Israel be halted.

  • Joan

    What nonsense you talk. It's like reading the writings of the living dead. The brainwashed living dead.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    Then why did Hamas just get their asses handed to them? The Islamic world is full of pain and misery. The religion is farce.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/RANDJA57 RANDJA57

    F*CK allah you people amaze me, religion of peace my ass

  • Joan

    well, so long as i go with my own that will suit me, my own being non muslims.

    If you will excuse me saying this, but you sound rather mentally disturbed, I know camel piss has healing properties, perhaps you could have your dosage checked.

  • Joan

    Oh Jolly good show.
    Long live the U.S and Israeli forces.

  • Joan

    Jihad that then, the US and Israeli strikes.

    I hope the heavens open . Amen

  • Joan

    And excuse the message.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    You might want to start using the word verily a few more times….oh I forgot you cannot think for yourself. You are nothing more than an Islamic slave.

    The truth is that Islam is the worlds biggest failure, but the Islamic world is just too weak to admit it, so they lash out at others. I do not care what Justin L has to say about Israel. Thousands of rockets were shot into Israel and they have run out of patience. They targeted the Hamas thugs, I hope that they kill everyone of them.

    Where is Hamas hiding now?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    He has sent you here to punish you as he does the rest of the Middle East. As no one is changing their mind about Islam. You are only proving our point.

  • Joan

    Can someone please translate this nonsense for me ? It may be best if children do not use this site as really it is intended for adult discussion. Those with a mental instability really should not contribute.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/ChristopherL ChristopherL

    Hey maybe it was the Jews who recently attacked Mumbai…..and London….and China….and Thailand.

  • Joan

    Maybe we should all just ignore her until she goes away. Just treat the trolls as invisible. That way we can get back to what the board was set up for.
    I say we just ignore them, it is making their mental condition worse.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

    Did you just say "Jolly good show."? :D

  • Joan

    It is the way i talk Kal, to rephase it means, "Good for them"

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    Jolly Roger! bangin up the kite, eh?

  • Joan

    ? is that meant to be funny ?

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    yea it's from an old monty python movie…