How the mainstream media teaches you to hate Israel

by Infidelesto on January 4, 2009 · 68 comments

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This is a recent post from Robert Spencer at JihadWatch

Perhaps all this is painfully obvious, but the mainstream media has become a full-bore organ of “Palestinian” propaganda. This CNN article is just one egregious example out of many. It goes on for paragraph after paragraph about the civilians wounded in Gaza, with only one skeptical sentence giving the other side of the matter: “Israeli leaders say they are trying to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza.” They “say” they’re “trying” — but as the rest of the article shows, obviously they’re not succeeding.

What could CNN do if it had any interest in actually being an organ of respectable journalism? CNN reporters could have asked about the Palestinians’ admitted use of civilians as human shields. They could have gone to Meshaal and Haniyah and asked why Hamas is launching attacks from civilian areas. They could have asked them if Hamas is, by doing that, trying to provoke Israeli counterattacks that will kill or injure civilians and that can then be used for propaganda purposes. They could have asked why the Palestinians seem to be in such a humanitarian crisis when Israel was sending in truckloads of aid right up until it began responding to the rocket attacks.

Then there is the picture above, which appears online with this article, and is one of an apparently endless series of wire photos depicting wounded children. Of course, CNN wasn’t bombarding us with pictures of children in southern Israel wounded by or fleeing from rocket attacks from Gaza, but aside from that, there are some questionable things about this photo. The child, for one thing, although apparently burned badly, is not crying or even distressed. According to a veteran Emergency Room doctor who saw the photo, the wounds appear to be up to 24 hours old, and a dermatologist and pathologist estimated that they could be as much as a week old.

Of course, it’s hard to tell anything for sure from a single photo, and maybe this child really has been freshly wounded, but here again — given all the faked photos and larger-scale (Muhammad al-Dura) fakery we have seen from the Palestinians, it isn’t unreasonable to question every photo that comes out of Gaza these days. If CNN were worth its salt as a news source rather than a propaganda organ, it would be going into Gaza and uncovering this fakery. It would be looking into the case of the little girl pictured above, and having her examined by honest doctors to see if she was actually wounded by a recent Israeli strike at all, or if her wounds are older and come from some other incident. And above all, it would be asking about the moral compass of a government that seems anxious to provoke and exploit the suffering of its own civilian population.

But of course, CNN’s refusal to do all those things, and to cast any critical eye at all toward the Palestinians and their claims, only encourages the Palestinians themselves to aspire to ever greater heights of manipulative fakery and propagandizing.

And CNN is just one of many.

“Doctor in Gaza: Patients ‘lying everywhere,” from CNN, January 4 (thanks to Jacques):

GAZA CITY (CNN) — Gaza’s main hospital, already full of Palestinians wounded in the week-long Israeli air assault, reached critical mass on Sunday, according to a Norwegian doctor volunteering at Shifa Hospital.

“We’ve had a steady stream [of patients] every day, but the last 24 hours has [brought] about triple the number of cases,” Dr. Erik Fosse told CNN. “So this day has been extremely busy.”

Fosse said he estimated that about 30 percent of the casualties at Shifa Hospital on Sunday were children, both among the dead and the wounded.

The increase in casualties at Shifa followed Israel’s's [sic] ground incursion into Gaza, which it launched on Saturday night. Fosse said 50 patients were “severely wounded” when an Israeli airstrike hit a food market in Gaza City.

“We were operating in the corridors, patients were lying everywhere, and people were dying before they got treatment,” he said.

Palestinian medical officials said Israeli forces have killed 37 Palestinians — both civilians and militants — since moving into the territory Saturday night. With those deaths, at least 485 Palestinians, including about 100 women and children, have been killed since the military operation began more than a week ago, officials said.

In addition, 2,600 Palestinians have been injured, most of them civilians, officials said.

Most of the casualties are a result of the airstrikes that preceded Saturday night’s ground incursion. Shifa is the main hospital in Gaza City. Other hospitals were unable to treat the wounded because of a shortage of supplies and staff.

Israel has said the military operation is a necessary self-defense measure after repeated rocket attacks from Gaza into southern Israel by Hamas militants. Israeli leaders say they are trying to minimize civilian casualties in Gaza.

Last week, Dr. Eyad El-Sarraj, a psychiatrist who runs Gaza’s mental health program, said Gaza is headed for “a major humanitarian disaster” unless the fighting ends soon.

Meanwhile, at the Gaza-Egypt border, nearly 25 trucks carrying relief and medical supplies were unable to get into Gaza because they could not get through the Rafa border gate, CNN’s Karl Penhaul reported.

Egyptian authorities said the guards who were manning the Palestinian side of the border had abandoned their posts. Aid workers and drivers banged on the gate to protest the closure, but the gate remained shut.

On Saturday — before Israel launched its ground incursion — old Palestinian ambulances carried some of the wounded across the border, where patients were loaded onto modern ambulances. Most of those taken into Egypt were civilians, including a teenage boy with his arm blown off, as well as a 4-day-old baby, who was not injured but needed to be kept on a ventilator and in an incubator.

About 10 truckloads of donations from Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey and Greece also crossed into Gaza on Saturday.

Read the Rest

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  • Richard C

    Israel claiming victimisation??? You need to read and watch a little more my friend. I suppose you'd like to see all Catholics eliminated from the planet too? Fact: Israel will continue to exist, get used to it. If Jordan & Egypt can accept this then so can other Arab states. Peace is the answer and no, I'm not Jewish but Israel is on the front line in the fight against Islamic Jihad and therefore we should support them.

    • buge

      Before the zionist came (1947), the 3 religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) live in peace my friend. The peace on palestine broken when the zionist came and said to the people there "hey, this is my land, go away or I blow your head" (who is the real terrorist then?). I do not agree with radicalzm, but I can understand the palestinians suffer and frustation at the giant prison of Gaza, being like a garbage that must be burned and destroyed.
      I know one thing, Judaism, Chritianity and Islam has the same root : the prophet Abraham (or Ibrahim in Islam). The 3 religions are basically not war religions.
      And I also know too, there was a peace upon the 3 religions in Palestine, before the "stupid ideology" zionist came.

  • Richard C

    The voice of reason and compassion surfaces again. What happend to you to twist your mind? Was it your parents or was it your esteemed prophet? How will the world achieve peace with minds like yours?

  • Richard C

    Soulafa, what a superb idea. How about we ask CNN to include the deaths of Jews from WWII? You see that's what you don't understand from the Israeli perspective. They won't allow another holocaust yet the provider of arms & training to Hamas has said another Jewish holocaust should take place. I could be cruel here and ask if we expect Israel to throw stones back. Proportion is undersatandable, but you may have to proportion in history as well understand the Jews perspective. Peace.

  • Soulafa

    Richard, thanks for your well-thought reply.

    It is true that millions of deaths have taken place in the past that have gone unmentioned – Jewish and non. Sometimes when a people have experienced extreme violence in their past, the emotional pendulum swings to the far extreme where those same people [who were victims 60 years ago] might start justifying committing the same acts of cruelty to others.

    I completely agree with you that understanding the others perspective is important here. Peace!

  • Soulafa

    For argument's sake, let's just say that CNN should dedicate one line of coverage for every civilian death during the past 9 days – 507 Palestinian deaths and 5 Israeli deaths. I would say this CNN article is a fair one.

    Each of these deaths deserves to be mourned… and for the world to read about and stand up against!

  • Joan

    When London was attacked with the V rockets during ww2 the retaliation, if i remember the account given to me correctly was to go over and flatten Germany.

    • gaz

      … good point, when Palastine is attaced with missiles it will not weaken their desire for freedom … it will just make them want to go over and flatten Israel

  • Onlloker

    Muslim suicide bombers killed more Muslim civilians today than the entire Israeli offensive , where is the outrage???

    • gaz

      eh… where was that?… over 500 killed by a suicide bomber in one day?… could you give me some references for that?

  • HatredKills

    That makes two terrorists now…

  • Tired of Israel

    I'm tired of Israel portraying itself as the constant victim. The middle east would be much better of if Israel wouldn't exist. Move the whole country somewhere else. I'm white and Protestant in case anyone asks why I think this way….

  • N/A

    You know? Hitler made a mistake…he left too many jews alive.

    • Beej

      Wrong. He did not LEAVE them alive. They displayed unmatched resilience and courage to survive and to forge a new nation that gives more to the world than it can ever receive. Jews are the backbone of heroism. Muslims? The rectum, perhaps.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    You are a sick individual.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    I don't mourn a bunch of dead terrorists in gaza. I rejoice.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    people expect barabarism from barbarians, therefore it's excused as non-barbaric. But when a Western country with high standards stands up for it's citizens and fights back after months and months of rocket attacks, the media cries foul because of hundreds of civilians killed shile being used as human shiields. Again, the barbarism comes from Hamas killing their own people.

    • gaz

      ….. well about 400 hundered palistineans killed so far, and 5 israelis. Would be interesting to see the reaction if 400 israelis had been killed hiding in a UN building. It just seems jewsish lives are worth more than palastinean ones.

      At the end of the day the jews have simply stolen land… they will never have peace until they give it back and negotiate.

      • ender

        yes, Jewish lives are worth more. The Jews have given more to the world in medicine and science to improve everyone's lives. even the arabs, Israelis provide medical care even for the people trying to kill them. The muslims, not so much, nothing but death.

        oh and they already admitted they were hiding the rockets there and using the UN for cover. Just as the hamas leaders are now hiding in hospitals to try and stay alive. such brave warriors, no wonder muslims can't field an army that would last more than a week against anything the West has. Desert Storm 100 hours or how about the six day war, pretty bad when your defeat is recorded in history and it took 6 days. LOL no wonder they hide with the women and children, then come out only to launch a rocket at other women and children. cowards.

  • Omar

    This is disgusting Israel is bombing civilians and claiming that they are human shields for Hamas, they say that Hamas are terrorists and the all of the world believes this. You claim free speech and any one that says anything bad about what is done in Gaza you’ll call him a terrorist and shoot him. Israel is an invader that occupies Palestine they will never see peace if they shoot for it. I second that remark about Hitler, and speaking about barbarism is quite right for you are talking about something you know allot about and do every day.

    • Beej

      Define Palestine, Omar, but before you do I suggest you brush up on your history.

  • Sara

    It was only a few years ago that BBC did a survey on media coverage of the Israel/Palestinian conflict and found that only about 10% came from the Palestinian perspective, the rest pro-Israel for obvious political reasons (not to dismiss the importance of history but simply a fact.) I guess it's hard when the tables are turned, but maybe fair, especially given a body count that includes about 30% children wounded and dead, never mind occupation issues. Were the only lessons learned the destruction of another people to save ones own?

  • Buge

    I am a moslem from Indonesia. A friend from German, he is a Jews, asked me if Indonesian moslem hate Jews or not? I answered no. We do not hate Jews and their Judaism. We do not hate Christian. We only hate ZIONIZM as an ideology of Jews fundamentalist. Instead of came by peace, the zionist came in 1948 with tanks and rifles and said to the people there (Libanesse, Egyptians and Arabs) "Hey, this is my land. Go away or I blow your head!". Many people died that year, Christians and Moslems. The zionist hunted and killed by Nazi during world war 2, and they just doing the same to the people of Palestinians who lived there for centuries. Jerusalem is belong to 3 religion, Judaism, Christianity and Islam. They have the same root. Abraham or Ibrahim is also must be respected by moslems as a prophet, and even Jesus (He is also one of the Islam's prophet). So, we respects other religion, Christianity and Judaism. But yes, I have to say that Indonesian poeple hates zionizm. Hamas would not exist if the zionists came with peace. Thats all. Sory for my bad english.

    • Sunny

      Buge,
      Why do Indonesian muslims hate the Ahmedias, a muslim subsect.
      One of my friends is an Indonesian embassy employee and I was surprised to see that the educated gentleman had for Ahmediyas.
      And what happened to the Buddhists in Indonesia? Probably, incidents like bali wouldnt have happened if Buddha still had a calming influence on the Indoensian populace. And hopefully, Islam in Indonesia wont go the Saudi arabia way. But looking at Banda Aceh, i doubt if Islam in Indoensia will stay Indonesian or will Indonesia become another Arab colony.

      • Buge

        Sunny, you have to learn or read about Ahmedias first. Ahmadiyah founded by Mirza Ghulam Ahmad from India in 1889. He claimed him self as a mesias and al mahdi. The point is, the basic principles are different. Even moderate muslims in my country says, If they want to make a new religion, go ahead, they free to do that, but please, do not use Islam's symbols and (change/editing) the holly Qur'an to legitimate their existence.
        About Budhist and Banda Aceh, you also have to read more about Indonesian history. About a thousand years ago, Hinduist and Budhist came and become dominant. After that, Arab (moslem) came to do business or trade with Indonesian by peace, and then Islam become dominant. Qur'an says, your religion is your religion and my religion is my religion. It means, we respect you, but we need your respect too. Budhist, Hinduist and Islam live in peace.
        About 400 years ago, European came to trade and brought misionaris, Catholics and Protestants. They came by peace at the beginning, but actually they also want to colonize my country. So we fought back even we knew we were loss in weapons technology at that time. Millions of my people died. Aceh pople become the strongest warriors when white pople try to colonize them hardly, and had important participation of Indonesia independence. But not just them, the Hinduist people in Bali also fought hard. History says that the Balinese did "puputan". Almost the same with Jihad in Islam, puputan means war to the dead, they did it to defend their beutifull island against white people (Netherland, Portuguese, and British). So, Aceh will stay Indonesian because of history similarity and not will become Arab colony.

  • http://seniorspeaks.blogspot.com Senior

    Tonight I watched the BBC and ITV news, and the BBC's coverage was definitely more biassed towards the Palestinians. ITV was quite ballanced, but the website certainly isn't. Something I find deeply disturbing is that several media sources keep suggesting that Israeli public opinion will turn against Israel's resistance of Hamas if more Israeli soldiers die. It's as if they want Israeli soldiers to die, so that Israel will give in. If that happens, Hamas will be victorious.

  • straliangirl

    masab yousuf hassan (hama's leaders son) gives you a good perspective of islam. What a shame the fool converted to another cult though (christianity).
    Even though at least christianity says love your enemy.
    We can go on and on about walls, and land and victims, this is all about religion.
    Religion is regarded by the masses as true, the wise as FALSE and the rulers as useful!
    Lets get masab hassan on here as a guest, can we?

  • Soulafa

    Toejam, are you implying we should mourn Israeli deaths but not Palestian deaths? There is a word for that – racism.

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

      Soulafa, you are incorrect in calling it racism, because going back over the millenia, Israelis and Palestinians are the same people, just worshippers of a different faith. I know Israelis who are indistinguishable from Saudis/Jordanians/Lebanese/Syrian. Palestinians are NOT a race. It is a nationality.

    • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

      Soulafa, you are incorrect in calling it racism, because going back over the millenia, Israelis and Palestinians are the same people, just worshippers of a different faith. I know Israelis who are indistinguishable from Saudis/Jordanians/Lebanese/Syrian. Palestinians are NOT a race. It is a nationality. Also, Palestinian jihadists in the form of Hamas, WILLINGLY hide their rockets among the women and children, and launch them from among them as well, knowing full well they will be killed when the Israelis retaliate. That is why we do not mourn. While my heart goes out to the children, for only they are truly innocent, brainwashed victims of jihad, the women who shelter the jihadists Hamas and allow themselves and their children to be used as human shields are no better than the jihadists.

    • Sunny

      Soulafa,

      Nobody says "dont mourn human deaths". Human beings are human beings. But the root causes of such traumas needs to be overcome and that is "islamic terrorism".

      I mourn the death of the 9 muslim terrorists who were slain in Mumbai recently; I also mourn the death of about 200 of their victims. I also feel sad, on being born as a human being, when these islamic terrorists mutilated the genitals of their victims, including little children.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/LilPete LilPete

    John easy on the morbid parties, Accept that terrorists have been killed but dont have a party especially when innocent civillians die as well

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

      War is a terrible, terrible thing that is sometimes necessary to stop evil in its tracks, and I don't take joy in seeing innocents who were killed. But I do blame Hamas for their deaths, not Israel. Putting civilians directly in the line of fire in which you are fully aware Israel will strike, and then blaming Israel to terrorizing them is morally backwards.

      A columnist at NRO put it best:

      Hamas was created to fight and win holy wars — not to seek peace and sing kumbaya with infidels. Hamas wants a Palestinian state in place of Israel — not next door to Israel. And for Hamas, preventing Palestinian carnage is not a priority. That’s not a slander, it’s a fact. As Hamas parliamentarian Fathi Hamad eloquently phrased it: “We desire death as you desire life.”

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/LilPete LilPete

    you odd little unfortunate creature how did you come to suffer such terrible brain injuries that left you with such a racist, uninformed, and hateful mind? some one get this individual a psychiatrist

  • Toejam

    Mourn Palestinian deaths. Why?

    Stand up against what?

    Hamas are the ones to stand up against, despite all the MSM whining.

    Israeli deaths are the ones to mourn.

    If the western world is to avoid Dhimmitude it better wake up fast and get behind the Israeli Defence Forces in wiping out the Islamofascists. PRONTO!

    • Toejam

      Correcto mundo. I'm a number uno Racist!

      I hates a religion which has proclaimed it will destroy all "non-believers".

      And we both know what dysfunctional 3rd century religion that is.

      Shalom Bubbie

  • Eric

    When we hear the report of children being killed in Gaza, how many are boys 14-17 fighting Israelis ast the encouragement of Hamas? Could Hamas fight the Israelis in the open areas and seek to lessen the risk to their women and children? I believe so. Those who support the Hamas position here, please answer about what Israel was supposed to do? They left Gaza, they were not driven out, and there have literally been thousands of rockets sent without care where they hit into Israel. Israel if it wanted could blast the heck out of Gaza and its people a lot more than this (what do they care, the world except for the US is condemning them stongly already). They are not because they truly want to hit Hamas and as few civilians as possible. When Hamas or other anti-Israeli groups strike, do they try and hit military targets or civilian ones? As for above comments about Zionism – factually when Israel was created in 1948, Arab countries immediately attacked and Palestinians were told not to worry they would soon have all of Israel. There was no acceptence then. Last question – why has Hamas used smuggling tunnels for weapons rather than for food and medicine if it truly cares about the most needy people among them?

  • ender

    mourn? why would you mourn for hamas when they get that ticket to paradise and some virgins. people around the world should be celebrateing.
    or is it because they weren't planning on going this week but next week with a bomb belt in a schoolyard with innocent victims?

  • gaz

    well the key is american help… without it Israel would be doomed, and without it britain would never have stood much chance in the Normandy landings

  • Joan

    Well then, i wonder who has been helping Hamas ?

    • http://intensedebate.com/people/Kal_El Kal_El

      Iran, and Syria.

  • http://intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    uh, they already want to flatten Israel. That's the whole point in this conflict. Israel has tried time and time again to give them a chance for peace, but Hamas continues to break cease fires, and continues to lob deadly rockets into southern Israel on a daily basis. Israel has no choice but to go to war. It's time for Hamas to be destroyed and all civillian life lost is tragic, but unfortunately a consequence of war. Hamas is fully responsible for their own civilian deaths.

  • http://www.intensedebate.com/people/Infidelesto John Infidelesto

    uh, they already want to flatten Israel. That's the whole point in this conflict. Israel has tried time and time again to give them a chance for peace, but Hamas continues to break cease fires, and continues to lob deadly rockets into southern Israel on a daily basis. Israel has no choice but to go to war. It's time for Hamas to be destroyed and all civilian life lost is tragic, but unfortunately a consequence of war. Hamas is fully responsible for their own civilian deaths.

  • Joan

    They may well want to gaz, but i feel they will be unable to match Israel.
    It is obvious that they cannot perform that tall order.

  • http://ramblingbluedot.blogspot.com/ RobC

    Amazing the anti Israel comments here… which proves how indoctrinated the masses are already.

  • buge

    We also have MINDS. And you also believe what you want to believe.
    I do not hate Jews, I just hate zionizm. I hate NAZI also. I hate genocide.
    Indonesian people feels the same Palestinians suffer and frustation when the Europeans tried to colonized my country 350 years ago. We got our independence (1945) over millions dead body killed in defending our country. But do we hate europeans or chirstianity or jews? NO, we just hate zionizm.

    • Beej

      Believe what I want to believe? Can you so easily dismiss history in such a cavalier fashion because you choose not to believe recorded events in 1929? This is what is so compellingly frightening about adherents to your religion. You'll be telling us next that the slaughter of Jewish athletes at Munich in 1972 or the Entebbe affair did not occur: that people such as myself believe it out of choice. We British have a shameful record of ill-treatment of Jews over the centuries, but at least we now have the good grace to admit to it, just as we feel deep shame over our exploitation of India, our participation in the Slave Trade and what we did in many other countries. What is the official Muslim view of the 1929 slaughter?

      It is gratifying to know that you, personally, have no hatred of Jews, but do you try to spread your enlightenment amongst others of your Faith? Do you believe Muslims of your opinion are in a majority? The greatest danger, perhaps, is that a progressive Muslim country can overnight become fundamentalist, as was the case when Khomeini took control in Iran, a lesson of history the West will forget at its peril. Let me put this to you, too: I was offered a teaching job in Oman, only to discover that if my passport revealed I had visited Israel, I would not be allowed into that Muslim land. Do you condone this policy? Does the Israeli Government impose such a stricture towards those who have visited a Muslim country? Of course not.

      So you hate Zionism: you deny the right of Israel to exist. Perhaps you feel uncomfortable with the fact that Israel is the only Democracy in the Middle East and that one of the ministers in its Government is a Muslim woman. Imagine such a thing happening in an Islamic state. But then, the Muslim view even of their own women is enough to cause revulsion in the civilised mind.

      Until your religion is blessed with a Reformation its adherents will continue to plough its evil furrow and Israel will have to remain on its guard. Yes, Israel is a fact. Start accepting it.

  • Beej.

    Gosh, Buge, you are a murderer of history. You want just one instance of Muslim atrocities committed against the Jews before 1947? Fine. Find out about the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and what he caused in 1929. Think you can manage that? Yup, peaceful days, 1929. The trouble with you lot is you believe what you want to believe. We non-Muslims have MINDS, though, so your lies fall on ground as barren as your intellects.

  • buge

    I was at Catholics school since kindergaten by the way. And Indonesian onced have a woman president. Do not teach the moslem of Indonesia about religion reformation.
    Israel is a fact. The palestinians slowly lost their lands is also the fact. Israel must also face the fact, to share the palestinians land fairly and equally.
    A friend of mine, a reporter, tote a litle girl who have been shoot brutally by the Israel (the girl died before he can get to hospital), that is a fact too.
    I wonder if the Europeans (netherlands or british) still colonize my home land, and my people still fighting to defending our freedom, so you still also saying "the eropeans colonization is the fact, start accepting it" ???

  • Beej

    You don't get it, do you? You utterly ignore reason and logic and have avoided answering the points I raised. "Don't teach the moslems of Indonesia about Religion (sic) reformation? This implies you have enjoyed such illumination, so pray tell us about it. You attended Catholic school as a little one? As a Catholic? Yes? What made you convert to Islam? Tell us, please, and tell us WHY, if such conversion occurred. You refer to Palestinians slowly losing their lands. At that time there was no country called Palestine, just as there is no country called The Middle East or The Orient. Palestine came into (disputed) existence as late as 1988. Israel was already 40 years old. You know someone whose child was killed by "Israel"? That is deeply tragic. I know a few Israelis whose children and grandparents were killed by you lot. Of course, I cannot claim to have known any of the Israeli athletes butchered in Munich, although I did know the brother of old Dora Bloch who was murdered in Entebbe. Hmm, Idi Amin was Moslem, wasn't he? Sought and found refuge in Libya. Satan looks after his own, I suppose. What do you mean when you write "I wonder if the Europeans still colonise my homeland"? Don't you know? Bet they don't. I freely accept the fact that certain European nations colonised many parts of the globe, but tell me where such colonisation still occurs. Unlike you, I accept history and its lessons, even if that history causes me to blush with shame. The best words you wrote in your otherwise empty contribution were "Israel is a fact." You bet it is, and it's there to stay. For God's sake, man, open your eyes and SEE!

  • Beej

    By the way, Buge, I still await your view of the 1929 slaughter, when, according to you, all was sweetness and light in "Palestine". Are you proud of the fact that the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem fled to Germany to ally himself with the Nazi cause – the Nazis you claim to hate? Didn't do him much good, did it?

  • buge

    Religion sick reformation you say ? So you hate moslems so much do you ? You tell me to open my eyes and see, you must also do it. I attended Catholics shool as a moslem, all my brothers and sisters and cousins attended Catholics school in Indonesia. Some of them convert to Catholic, I don't mind with that, and you say Islam is a sick religion ? We have woman president onced, and womans minister in government. Is that also sick religion reformation in your eyes ?
    Before 1945 there is no country called INDONESIA. The country exist after millions of my people (moslems, christians, hinduists, budhists) died in defending our land from the europeans (350 years old exist to colonize). Most moslems in my country including me do not hate europeans and christianity to revenge millions slaughtered by europeans. Millions! This lesson history of my country teach us about freedom.

    • Beej

      Sic, not sick. Find out what it means. So you once had Muslim woman as President. I wonder if she was genitally intact.

  • buge

    Await for what? To justify more than 900 hundreds palestinian slaughtered in Gaza and thousands wounded civilians with no water and no food is worth for 1929 slaughtered?

    • Beej

      Ah, so you DO recognise the fact that the 1929 massacre occurred. Well, that's progress, anyway. Why have 900 Palestinians been "slaughtered" recently? Because Hamas heroes fire rockets from their hiding places into Israel. There, that's it. Simple. Understand?

  • ender

    please Joan, you should know you can't use facts when dealing with muslims. they distort and change everything to fit into their close minded 7th century death cult. If they can't accept that Jews have been around for 3000 years or Christians for just over 2000 years how can you get them to accept anything else if they have been lying for almost 1300 years.
    also, using history, japan bombed pearl harbor and America nuked them, twice. Considering the Israelis are calling the buildings first to let the people there know they are coming, so they can flee if they are "innocent bystanders' or die if they are not. Seems kind of nice in a way, like making an appointment, now that is a polite and considerate war.

  • buge

    So I see, you justify more than 200 children also killed as a revenge of 1929 massacred. Hamas exist as a form of suffering and frustation of the palestinians. It's about being independence. It's about seeking freedom just like Indonesia people did in the past. Do you know what the Netherlands called the Indonesian's fighters in the past? the terrorist. That's it. That is also very simple. Can you understand that ? Of course you can't.

  • buge

    What do you meant by ginitally intact? Ah, I forget, you hate muslims.

  • Beej

    Had not Hamas fired all those rockets (over 2,000 last year) into Israel, those 200 children would still be alive and, no doubt, eager to grow up to be rocket-firers and suicide bombers. Personally, I would justify the killing of the whole sodding lot of you, but that is not the point. Israelis would damn me for holding such an opinion, but until you loathsome amoeba march into the 21st Century (a VERY long journey for your lot) I shall maintain my detestation of everything you stand for. Muslims are a waste of oxygen. Blind, ignorant, useless, paedophilic vermin. Embrace reason and tolerance and I'll welcome you with open arms. By the way, have you had your IQ measured? I think not. Why? Because they'll have a hell of a job finding it.

  • Beej

    No, dear boy, gEnitally intact; not gInitally intact. Got a dictionary there? It's all about genitals. No such thing as ginitals. I simply wondered if your lady President was "entire", or if she might have been subjected to the clitoridectomic alterations so favoured by your religion. We of the civilised world often refer to it as female mutilation. Understand?

  • buge

    Muslims are a waste of oxygen you said. Gosh …. :D :D :D You are a truly racist my friend. You judge the book by itscover. Just come to Indonesia, I will welcome you as a guest that I (muslims) must be respected. I will show you the hispotality of a big muslims moderate country in the world. Don't worry about the Islam fundamentalist, most of them already been killed by the police :D :D :D
    Oh yes, I had my IQ meassured. My IQ is 132 :D And I work as a computer programmer for living.

  • buge

    Ah i see. You're talking about culture that muslims in Indonesia not get used to it anymore.

  • Beej

    132, or 1.32? Welcome me to Indonesia? A few years ago a few hundred Australians were welcomed to Bali by your heroes. Our country mourns their passing. They were but holiday-makers on that land, bringing a spot of wealth to its economy, but they died at the hands of Muslim extremists. Their crime? They came from a country whose Government backed the policy of Mr Bush. Thus, if Indonesia is the most moderate Muslim country in the world, God help us all.

    My detestation of your vile religion is not a racist issue, Mr IQ 1.32, since Mohammed's followers scar so many nations, polluting the world and hindering human social intercourse and understanding. Get your Reformation and join the human race.

  • buge

    Wow! :D :D :D My IQ is 132. So please call me Mr. IQ 132. :D :D :D
    Not just Australians killed in Bali, Indonesian people also. The terrorist who done that has been captured and got dead pinalty by the court. Have you read it that? You tell me onced that kind of your people have MINDS.
    Like I said before, you are a racist. A TRULY one. Your view of Mohammed are only at the surface. You judge the book by it's cover. You know a litle but speaking too much like a scientist who studied Islam for years. You also have absolutly wrong idea about muslims in Indonesia, the biggest muslims in the world. Gosh…
    It is offcourse useless to speak with a racist like who claim had minds but in the other hand do not want to open his mind to study more about muslims in indonesia.
    May I know your IQ ? :D :D :D

  • Beej

    IQ? 152.

    So people other than Australians were killed, too? Ah, that makes me feel better. Yes, I am aware that three of the perpetrators were executed. How I wish I might have been present at their execution. Of course, you lot believe they are at this moment savouring infant virgin flesh in your imagined Paradise. I judge a book by its cover? I piss on your book and the child-molester who wrote it. Why do you persistently misuse the word "racist"? Muslims are not a race, but a pestilence; an anachronism; a foulness.

  • buge

    Ah yes, so you are a muslims haters Mr IQ 152 :D
    A muslim haters that always telling me to see and open my eyes (and use minds), buy not doing the same at the other hand.
    "Of course, you lot believe they are at this moment savouring infant virgin flesh in your imagined Paradise" you said, but my cousin, a Catholic, laugh very loud reading your comments here. I bet he is a Jews he said.
    Are you?
    God (your God and mine) bless you. I hope…
    Ok then, I realy enjoy this conversation by the way. Let me, a muslim, a pestilence; an anachronism; a foulness, with IQ 132, watch the reply of the match between Manchester United VS Chelsea on TV :D :D :D

  • Beej

    Dear Buge, I am not a Jew. I was raised a Christian, but when I reached the age of reason I cast off superstition and embraced freedom of thought. All religions disgust me, but not their adherents, unless they pose a danger to the wellbeing of our fellow travellers in life. Muslims do a good job of just that. Leave the Jews alone, and they'll leave you alone. Mess with them, and get burned! Brilliant people, the Jews. So many of them have contributed mightily to the march of progress, despite their tiny numbers, but the Islamic world has contributed sweet fanny adams. Why? Are Muslims intellectually inadequate? Of course not! They are as bright as anyone else, but they live under the yoke of a smothering religion whose intellectually impoverished clerics are allowed to crush and enslave young minds.

  • buge

    I think poverty and lack of education and love, are on top of the list factors that caused radical stubborn thinking. It happen to any religions, any races, and cultures. Thank God I come from middle class in my country, I attended Catholics school, and a university graduate. I have a good job as a computer programmer, I have my own house and my own car. I have a 4 years old daughter, a litle princess I love very much, and a very nice wife. I am a muslim but non practical. I still drink alcohols if I go to the club or cafee with my Manchester Utd. fans fellows (but offcourse I never tell my wife that I drink alcohol).
    Indonesia consists of various ethnics and religions. Muslims are dominant. My friends and best friends, they are Chinesse, India, Arab, Javanesse, and other ethnics. Me and my friends always try not to talk pros and cons of ethnic or religions conflicts, or say somethink about ethnic/religion stereotype, it is too sensitive. Stupid tragic ethnics and religions conflict were happen onced. Instead of figuring who is wrong or right, me and my friends keep united and try to find solution by dialogue and compromise.
    Arabs & Middle East culture is so different with Indonesian culture. Don’t ask me why, because I don’t have the answer for that.
    You are very lucky you born and stay in British, education and scients are very supported by your government.
    My country still fight against the poverty, education and scients are not enough supported. But my country still in better conditions if we compare it with poor countries out there.
    Yes, Jews are brilliant people. Did I mentioned before that I have a Jew friend? He is a German. The internet and yahoo messanger make us meet and become good friend. I met him when he visit my country. I introduce him to my friends. He was very surpriced with the atmosphere of my country.