Debbie Schlussel: State of Illinois recognizes fictional country of “Palestine”

well if Israel is the ancestral land of the jews, then surely America is the ancestral land of the native americans, Australia the ancestral land of the aborigonies. and everyone else is an occupying terrorist.

And if what happened thousands of years ago is at all releveant, then surely the holy land should belong should belong to the Itallians.

The idea that some people have some sort of divine right to a piece of land due to what happened thousands of years ago is not only laughable, but also racist.

Well if palestine doesn't exist as a country, what is the land the palestinians live on called?... I just don't get it. What status should it have?... should it have any form of government?... How do you envision its status?.... do you see it as some sort of trailer park?....

If it is not a country, has no legal status, then what is it? If you are suggesting it should be part of Israel... then fair enough, that would de facto make the palestinians Israelis. Which might be not a bad idea, then they could vote on who they want as the israeli government just like every other israeli.

That is of course unless you are a racist, and believe they should not be able to vote because they are basically arabs. This of course would create a system of aparteit... like what happened in south africa. Whites vote blacks dont. Or in this case jews in Israel vote... arabs in Israel can't.

I dont think setting up another aparteit system is really the way to go in the 21st century.

So it is either part of Israel or it is not... if it is not part of Israel then what is it?

There is no point in going on "its not a country".... if it isn't then what is it? and why not let it be a countyry? Luxemboug is small but is defined as a country, so why not define Palastine as one?

And why not state it in the positive? instead of saying "it's not a country" say what it is. If it is full of palestineans and they want to call where they live a country why not?....

Unless you think it belongs to Israel in which case call them israelis and give them the vote.

Good post, Gaz. I hope it will bring forth some spirited discussion. I am far from being an expert in such matters, but I hope others more qualified than I will respond to your pithy questions. What does it take for a country to be a country, if I may put it in such terms. I believe there are formal international guidelines for this, although I am unable to state them. It's hell being a scientist! Are you correct in saying the Arabs who live in Israel are denied the vote? If so, I am amazed, particularly given the fact that some elected members of the Israeli Government are Arabs. The very word "Palestine" has anomalous qualities, for it originally (correct me if I am wrong) was used by the Romans to designate a vague area in what we now call the Middle East - just as the Middle East is a vague, undefined entity. Does Palestine, the country, hold a seat in the United Nations? If not, why not? If Palestine, the country, exists, what are its boundaries? My feeble efforts to unravel this conundrum lead me to conclude that there is no such country as Palestine.

More than any other country I can think of, Israel is under constant threat of extinction. It's easy for me, living in Australia, to view Israeli attitudes in an unfavourable light, but when I think of the arrival of over 2,000 rockets into Israel's civilian areas last year I see clearly what drives them. It is not a question of apartheid or "racism", but one of survival.

Tragic, is it not? And all because of ancient blind superstition. Yet, I will continue to give my undying loyalty to Israel because it's a secular democracy that honours free thinking and refuses to base the conduct of its daily life on dogma.

Arabs who live in israel, if definied as Israeli citizens can vote.

The rest of the palestineans in the West Bank territory occupied by Israel have no legal status whatsoever, therefore have no state, no country, no rights, and cannot vote in Israeli matters, yet also have no real legal rights on the land they have occupied for generations.

If one can set aside questions about whether you like Islam or not (I personally don't like Islam but let us leave that aside for a moment). Then in simply human terms the situation for Palestineans in both the west bank and Gaza on a day to day basis is extreemly grim.

I agree firing rockets is unacceptable, I agree Israel is a democracy that need defending, I agree that Hammas are lunartics. But I think the small slivers of land the palestinians call their own are being built on by Israel in the face of international law... The west bank is being covered by Isreali settlements, leaving the indigenous palestinean (who have lived on the land for generations) with no land, no country and no vote in what is going on.

If the Israeli settlements carry on then the indidgenous pooulation with be reduced to being... well what? I dont know what their status would be. Like gypsies in their own land. A greater Isreal with lots of nice new houses, with lots of dirt poor palistineans, with no rights their olive groves taken from them, living under cardboard boxes, with absolutely no legal status and no right to vote.

As much as I support Israel as a vibrant democracy, this policy I cannot really support.

Those "settlements" are being built on ancestral Jewish land. They gave the
land to the "Palestinians" (a made up people, even the PLO admitted that in
the 70's) and yet the rockets continued. If someone told you to give them
land or they would continue firing rockets at your home, and you gave them
the land, but the rockets did not subside, what would you do? The Israelis
are not trying to destroy the "Palestinians". They merely want to exist. It
is the Arabs who started each of the major conflicts with the Israelis, then
cry like a bunch of pussies when they get their asses handed to them.

Kal_El wrote:

"a made up people, even the PLO admitted that in
the 70's"

You're 100% CORRECT.

The "palestinian people " and "palestine" are as trustworthy
as a nine-Dollar bill.

THE TRUTH:

The "palestinians" that lives in the Gaza Strip are nothing,
but EGYPTIANS.
The "palestinians" that lives in the so-called "West Bank"
came from Syria,Iraq,Egypt,Arabian desert that were attracted
by the early Zionist investments in the 1880's and on.
Up until 1967,they never described themselves as "palestinians"
but Arabs,who were undistinguishable from their peers born
elsewhere,both in language and cultural aspects.

The so-called "palestinian struggle" is a scheme cooked-up
in Cairo by Nasser's secret service in 1964,when the PLO
was founded.
As he went ballistic due to Israel's formidable war machine,
as 1967 War clearly proved to him and his generals,they
improved the PLO's ability to strike Israel from WITHIN,
by means of TERRORISM.

"Palestine" is actually TERRORLAND.

A couple of points -

> The "palestinians" that lives in the so-called "West Bank"
> came from Syria,Iraq,Egypt,Arabian desert that were attracted
> by the early Zionist investments in the 1880's and on.

Just not true - the pre-Balfour Declaration settlements brought about 75000 Jews over 30 years. Palestinian Arabs, Christians and Jewish populations lived there and had done so under a series of rulers (through the Ottoman Empire and then the British) for a very long time.

> The so-called "palestinian struggle" is a scheme cooked-up
> in Cairo by Nasser's secret service in 1964,when the PLO
> was founded.

I'm afraid you're really way off with you timing here. There is clear evidence of a Palestinian identity at least under Ottoman rule and of course there were anti-British riots in the 1920-1 and 1929 and and all out revolt against the British in 1936 (stick to Israeli scholars if you like - Benny Morris, 1988 and also his 2001 book have information on circa WW1 Palestinian nationalist movements).
A cursory look at wikipedia revealed this reference to "the first demand for national independence was issued by the Syrian-Palestinian Congress on 21 September 1921" (Yehoshua Porath, 1974) but I don't have that text so you can look these things up for yourself.

> Those "settlements" are being built on ancestral Jewish land.

This is not supported by either evidence or any independent international body (World Court / human rights organisations), who have all deemed any settlements on land seized after the 1967 war as illegal population transfers into occupied Palestinian territories.

Dude, seriously. Go back in history, the Romans conquered Judea, and with
the idea of disparaging the Jews, renamed the entire region Palestine (to
include modern Jordan, Syria, Lebanon and Israel). There is NO SUCH THING as
a country called Palestine. As for the occupied territory, it is occupied by
muslims, and righfully belongs to the Jews. Long before islam was invented,
Jews called Jerusalem their capital. Long before a mosque was built, the
Temple Mount was there.

There was NEVER an independent country called "palestine".There was never
even a people who called themselves as "palestinians".
This is an INVENTION cooked up in Cairo by Nasser and his henchmen from
the Egyptian Intelligence.Yasser Arafat was an Egyptian and also a Nasser's
agent.
This whole thing called "palestinian struggle" is nothing but a well-thought
PLOT to destroy Israel from WITHIN,specially after the frightening Arab defeat
during the 1967 War.In 1977 a "palestinian" from the PLO CONFESSED all
that during an interview in Sweden.

>This whole thing called "palestinian struggle" is nothing but a well-thought
>PLOT to destroy Israel from WITHIN,specially after the frightening Arab defeat
>during the 1967 War.In 1977 a "palestinian" from the PLO CONFESSED all
>that during an interview in Sweden.

This would be interesting if were true - ask any expert on the topic at a non-politically allied institution (ie the academy) or see if you can verify this claim yourself. I couldn't.

Depends on which "academy" you go to in order to ask. I assume you managed
to find an academic not wallowing in leftist anti-semitism, bankrolled by
Saudi or some other islamist group.

No need to stray into fringe territory - stick to mainstream institutions if you like. Oxford, Harvard, LSE, Yale ... take your pick.

I'm from Australia and have never heard of a history / political science / law academic being bankrolled by a Saudi group etc. and frankly it sounds quite silly. Would be interested in any information about such activities in mainstream academia however. Thanks.

PS not really sure what "leftist anti-semitism" means either. What does being on the political left have to do with racism? So much of the political left is full of Jews after all, at least in my experience. The Zionist Left is an old movement after all and of course Marx was a Jew.

Harvard, Yale, and most Uni's in the States are full of anti-American scum,
who idolize commies like Chavez, Stalin, etc, and think capitalism is evil.
Many students graduating today are useless troglodytes with diplomas, but no
viable real world skills, other than clamoring for government handouts when
they fail. See our banking sector for example.

They are producing plenty of propaganda about the existence of the fictional
country called Palestine. Look up John Esposito. -
http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/4600 - Is that mainstream enough for
you?

Leftist anti-semitism is self explanatory. Many Jews on the left are
non-practicing and self-hating, so drunk on their ability to empathize and
"feel the pain" of their enemies (Selma Blair comes to mind, as does Rabbi
Michael Lerner) that they come out in favor of evil.

I read the article you linked to and I don't really understand the problem. Some very rich Saudi prince gave large endowments to some already very well off US univeristies to spend on Islamic studies. They used to money on Islamic studies. Am I missing something? The article also refers to an endowment by the 'Schusterman Family Foundation' to be used for Israeli studies. I don't see a problem with either.

BTW Selma Blair? Now I think you must be pulling my leg ... she's an actress ... who gives a damn what she says or thinks? Please tell me you're kidding.

Don't they teach history in Illinois? Who are the THEY in that State who claim there is such a thing as Palestine? What are the grounds for their belief? No doubt they are those brainless shits who subscribe to the idea of Intelligent Design (I hesitate to use capitals, but it seems grammatically correct). Please, Mr Illinois Man who feels he has the right to foster such utter nonsense, write to me so that I might destroy your wafer-thin, one-cell brain.