Why We Waterboarded Abu Zubaydah and KSM

by Infidelesto on April 20, 2009 · Comments

If you ever wondered why we waterboarded terrorists such as Khalid Sheik Mohammed or Abu Zubaydah, we did it because we KNEW they had detailed and credible information about more people involved and potentially more information on coming attacks.  We did it to PROTECT the American people.  Something that liberals and some so-called conservatives think constitutes torture.  

News flash: Waterboarding was performed 83 times in August 2002 on Al Qaeda operative Abu Zubaydah.  It was also performed 183 times on KSM, the guy who personally beheadeed Wall Street Journal reported Daniel Pearl and confessed to planning the 9-11 attacks. (NY Times)

So let me get this straight, we waterboarded 2 guys a combined 266 times and we consider that “torture”? How can it be torture? You’d think after being “tortured” 83 times or even 183 times, the guy would be dead by now, right? 

Wrong… For the love of God, these liberal idiots would rather let thousands die than to perform a procedure which is still widely debated as even being called “torture”.  Remember, the enemy would gladly slice your head off given the opportunity, and suddenly we are seen as a country who “tortures” people becuase the liberal left along with their media cohorts say so? 

here’s an interesting comment from former CIA director Michael Hayden (via Weekly Standard)

The facts of the case are that the use of these techniques against these terrorists made us safer. It really did work. The president’s speech, President Bush in September of ‘06, outlined how one detainee led to another, led to another, with the use of these techniques.

and here’s the details in which Hayden was referring to:

 

waterboardingWithin months of September the 11th, 2001, we captured a man known as Abu Zubaydah. We believe that Zubaydah was a senior terrorist leader and a trusted associate of Osama bin Laden. Our intelligence community believes he had run a terrorist camp in Afghanistan where some of the 9/11 hijackers trained, and that he helped smuggle al Qaeda leaders out of Afghanistan after coalition forces arrived to liberate that country. Zubaydah was severely wounded during the firefight that brought him into custody — and he survived only because of the medical care arranged by the CIA.

After he recovered, Zubaydah was defiant and evasive. He declared his hatred of America. During questioning, he at first disclosed what he thought was nominal information — and then stopped all cooperation. Well, in fact, the “nominal” information he gave us turned out to be quite important. For example, Zubaydah disclosed Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — or KSM — was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, and used the alias “Muktar.” This was a vital piece of the puzzle that helped our intelligence community pursue KSM. Abu Zubaydah also provided information that helped stop a terrorist attack being planned for inside the United States — an attack about which we had no previous information. Zubaydah told us that al Qaeda operatives were planning to launch an attack in the U.S., and provided physical descriptions of the operatives and information on their general location. Based on the information he provided, the operatives were detained — one while traveling to the United States.

Information from the terrorists in this program has helped us to identify individuals that al Qaeda deemed suitable for Western operations, many of whom we had never heard about before. They include terrorists who were set to case targets inside the United States, including financial buildings in major cities on the East Coast. Information from terrorists in CIA custody has played a role in the capture or questioning of nearly every senior al Qaeda member or associate detained by the U.S. and its allies since this program began. By providing everything from initial leads to photo identifications, to precise locations of where terrorists were hiding, this program has helped us to take potential mass murderers off the streets before they were able to kill.

We knew that Zubaydah had more information that could save innocent lives, but he stopped talking. As his questioning proceeded, it became clear that he had received training on how to resist interrogation. And so the CIA used an alternative set of procedures. These procedures were designed to be safe, to comply with our laws, our Constitution, and our treaty obligations. The Department of Justice reviewed the authorized methods extensively and determined them to be lawful. I cannot describe the specific methods used — I think you understand why — if I did, it would help the terrorists learn how to resist questioning, and to keep information from us that we need to prevent new attacks on our country. But I can say the procedures were tough, and they were safe, and lawful, and necessary.

Zubaydah was questioned using these procedures, and soon he began to provide information on key al Qaeda operatives, including information that helped us find and capture more of those responsible for the attacks on September the 11th. For example, Zubaydah identified one of KSM’s accomplices in the 9/11 attacks — a terrorist named Ramzi bin al Shibh. The information Zubaydah provided helped lead to the capture of bin al Shibh. And together these two terrorists provided information that helped in the planning and execution of the operation that captured Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.

Once in our custody, KSM was questioned by the CIA using these procedures, and he soon provided information that helped us stop another planned attack on the United States. During questioning, KSM told us about another al Qaeda operative he knew was in CIA custody — a terrorist named Majid Khan. KSM revealed that Khan had been told to deliver $50,000 to individuals working for a suspected terrorist leader named Hambali, the leader of al Qaeda’s Southeast Asian affiliate known as “J-I”. CIA officers confronted Khan with this information. Khan confirmed that the money had been delivered to an operative named Zubair, and provided both a physical description and contact number for this operative.

Based on that information, Zubair was captured in June of 2003, and he soon provided information that helped lead to the capture of Hambali. After Hambali’s arrest, KSM was questioned again. He identified Hambali’s brother as the leader of a “J-I” cell, and Hambali’s conduit for communications with al Qaeda. Hambali’s brother was soon captured in Pakistan, and, in turn, led us to a cell of 17 Southeast Asian “J-I” operatives. When confronted with the news that his terror cell had been broken up, Hambali admitted that the operatives were being groomed at KSM’s request for attacks inside the United States — probably [sic] using airplanes.

During questioning, KSM also provided many details of other plots to kill innocent Americans. For example, he described the design of planned attacks on buildings inside the United States, and how operatives were directed to carry them out. He told us the operatives had been instructed to ensure that the explosives went off at a point that was high enough to prevent the people trapped above from escaping out the windows.

KSM also provided vital information on al Qaeda’s efforts to obtain biological weapons. During questioning, KSM admitted that he had met three individuals involved in al Qaeda’s efforts to produce anthrax, a deadly biological agent — and he identified one of the individuals as a terrorist named Yazid. KSM apparently believed we already had this information, because Yazid had been captured and taken into foreign custody before KSM’s arrest. In fact, we did not know about Yazid’s role in al Qaeda’s anthrax program. Information from Yazid then helped lead to the capture of his two principal assistants in the anthrax program. Without the information provided by KSM and Yazid, we might not have uncovered this al Qaeda biological weapons program, or stopped this al Qaeda cell from developing anthrax for attacks against the United States.

These are some of the plots that have been stopped because of the information of this vital program. Terrorists held in CIA custody have also provided information that helped stop a planned strike on U.S. Marines at Camp Lemonier in Djibouti — they were going to use an explosive laden water tanker. They helped stop a planned attack on the U.S. consulate in Karachi using car bombs and motorcycle bombs, and they helped stop a plot to hijack passenger planes and fly them into Heathrow or the Canary Wharf in London.

We’re getting vital information necessary to do our jobs, and that’s to protect the American people and our allies.

 

So as you can see, these methods clearly worked…

I don’t know anyone, who can say with a straight face, that they would’nt use “enhanced interrorgation” to gain credible information in case of imminient attack on the American people.  I consider that traiterous if you are too politically correct to use enhanced interrogation techniques to get the enemy to talk.  How DARE these liberal elites put us in danger like this.  How many Americans have to die before some liberal elitist politician says it’s ok to use a method that’s not even widely recognized as torture.

Related posts:

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  3. FBI Director warns of Al Qaeda linked Somali group inside US
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  6. Nuclear Al Qaeda
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  9. Algeria: Al-Qaeda ‘turncoat’ reveals plans for suicide attacks
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  • BRBP
    I would have no problem at all with sitting them on a stump, nailing their scrotum to it, then pushing them over backwards.
  • Winghunter
    Liz Cheney put in an outstanding performance at MSNBC, of all places.

    She not only knew the facts cold but, she also studied the liberal whining that she knew would be drooled at her.

    That's competency, that's the quality of leadership that we instinctively respond to and so sorely need;

    http://patterico.com/2009/04/25/liz-cheney-on-w...
  • dbaragona
    I assumed we used waterboarding to try and obtain information about finding the location of bi Laden didn't we??...I wonder what happened there??...It didn't work??...Just asking...
  • Beejj
    Clearly, they should have used sulphuric acid instead of water.
  • JEWHAWK
    Dear dbaragona...the modus operandi of the Intelligence
    aparatuses isn't easy to follow.Sometimes they
    let a medium-sized "fish" escape in order to get a bigger one
    later.It's time consuming,frustrating,DANGEROUS and
    last but not least, they're UNFAIRLY getting a bad rep at HOME which is kinda a giant pill to swallow,isn't it?

    They protect AMERICAN LIVES,having to deal with the LOWEST
    kind of people,folks who are completely indiferent to the damage they
    cause,don't care for their own lives...
    And,all of this,having to treat the muslim scum like a principal
    dealing with ill-behaved teenagers.It's tough.
    Fighting within rules that your oponent doesn't follow is STUPID.
  • Kal_El
    We know where he is, the problem is he is sheltered, and hiding, among
    civilians, including women and children, in the Swat region of Pakistan. The
    problem is that President Bush got distracted and went into Iraq
    prematurely. We should have waited until at least 2006 to invade and topple
    Saddam, first securing Afghanistan. As usual, we got in our own way.
  • Shukri
    The amount of times that AZ and KSM were tortured indicates that it is not an effective technique.

    America has lost it's moral ground, and needs to work hard to regain it. It's fortunate that Obama is changing things around, as celebrated by a Green Beret.

    http://tinyurl.com/apnefb
  • JAGMD
    The information they received proves that it IS an effective technique. Who gives a flying crap how many times it had to be performed. I've got big money that says more extreme measures would've gotten results faster after many fewer repetitions.
  • Shukri, it's been documented that it was effective, in fact you could argue that an American City was saved (Los Angeles) because of the techniques we used. I suggest you actually READ the blogpost above and you'll see these things were testified by the former CIA DIRECTOR in charge. You'd think he'd know a thing or two on whether enhanced interrogation saves American lives or not.
  • Shukri
    I think I'll take the words of a former Green Beret:

    "we can beat the terrorists we face without torture. In fact, we can fight them better and more effectively from high ground than from low ground." - http://tinyurl.com/cq9zcf
  • Storm_Rider
    Failure to defend innocent human life from the evil hands of Islamist terrorists is not only cowardly, it is immoral. Torture is repulsive, but it is less repulsive than outright murder, and much less repulsive than mass-murder.

    "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil." Proverbs
  • Shukri
    If you truly want to defeat terrorism, you have to understand it's causes. People who have conducted in-depth research into terrorists, such as Robert Pape and Michael Scheuer, state unequivocally that real and perceived "invasions and occupations" by western countries causes terrorism.

    A common sense outlook tells us the same thing. Look at the places where terrorism exists and look at the common factors. Yes, Islam is a common factor, but there are 1.5 billion Muslims, and the vast majority of them have never committed a violent act.

    So what else is a common factor?

    "Invasion and occupation". Terrorist acts by Muslims are directly linked to the invasion and occupation of Muslim countries. Look at the Madrid bombings, for instance. Once Spain removed it's troops from Iraq, there were no more bombings by Muslim terrorists. Look at the London bombings. It only took place after the UK invaded Iraq. The Canadian terror plots? Only after Canada sent troops to Afghanistan. Terrorism in Israel? Only after Israel occupied Palestine. The Russian theater siege and Beslan? Only after Russia invaded and occupied Chechnya.

    As you can see, there is a clear case to link occupation and terrorism. Ignoring the link, in order to blame Islam, will not solve the problem.
  • Storm_Rider
    Shukri: "Yes, Islam is a common factor, but there are 1.5 billion Muslims, and the vast majority of them have never committed a violent act."

    Yes, in the 1930's and 40's Nazism was the common factor, but there were 80 million Germans, and the vast majority of them never committed a violent act.

    Shukri, I view you as a rather small individual because of your inability or unwillingness to reason. You may have a significant amount of information in your head, but you are unable (or you are unwilling to do so as an enemy) to connect those dots into a picture corresponding to reality. Ordinary Muslims today are just as irrelevant as Ordinary Germans during World War II; neither group is, or was, capable of overcoming the corruption in their political and legal systems, i.e.: their leadership. Good ordinary populations are often rendered irrelevant by the jackboot of Totalitarian Law and Power.
  • SirWilhelm
    If I thought Shukri would listen, I would tell him there is no reason or rationalization that can justify terrorism. It is just plain wrong, it is an evil thing to do. And, worst of all, it hardly ever accomplishes it's goals. Has terrorism defeated or destroyed Israel? Have the Palestianisans regained their homes? All terrorism has led to is tremendous death and suffering on all sides.

    And where is the honor in terroism? Where is the honor in wearing masks while beheading people? Where is the honor in sending women, girls and boys to die with bombs strapped to their bodies? Worse still, Muslims kill women in the name of honor on the basis of rumors and appearances. Muslims have no idea what honor really means.

    Anyone that belongs to a "religion", political group, or organization that uses terrorism is as guilty as the individuals that actually commit the acts. See the banning and crimilization of the Nazi Party after WWII. If and when the infidels defeat Islam, the same thing should be done to Islam.
  • Shukri
    Your comparison makes no sense. Muslims are defending themselves from western aggression which has killed at least 90,000 civilians in Iraq. Western countries back the killing and murder of Muslims, and the theft of their lands and resources, the world over.

    You can choose to blame Islam now. But later, if you are interested in being part of a solution, you may have to backtrack your positions.

    It's better to be right from the beginning than to have to go back and fix up our mistakes.
  • SirWilhelm
    Aside from Iraq, what lands or resoruces do you speak of? And what provoked the attack on 911? Iraq is being returned to it's people with a democratic govt, as our troops are gradually withdrawn. Iraqis still own the oil within their own boarders and it is the main source of their income. If we buy Iraqi oil, we pay the same price any other country does, whatever the market dictates. When Saddam controlled Iraqi oil, he used it to build the 4th largest army in the world, and used that to invade Kuwait, a fellow Muslim nation, so he could get the money from THEIR oil, because he'd spent too much on his military and the war with Iran. And many countries fought to free Kuwait so they could control and benefit from their own oil. Is anyone complaining about the occupation of Kuwait? There are US bases in Kuwait because they appreciate what was done for them, and they don't fear us controlling their oil.

    By the way, would you like to explain why there are still bombs going off in Iraq, killing Iraqi troops, police and civilians? While there is little US military presence left on the street because the Iraqis are taking over their own security?

    It does take two sides to have a war, but it's Islam that cries "jihad" at the slighest provocation, it's Islam that claims terrorism is justified, and it's Islamic leaders that continue to call for the destruction of Israel, the US and all infidels. This despite the election of a president that wants to talk things out.

    Right from the begining? There has been nothing right about Islam from it's begining, as the life of it's founder clearly shows, and history may end trying to fix the problems it has created.
  • Shukri
    90,000+ Iraqis being killed is enough provocation. As are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who have been robbed of their land and are being kept, occupied, in containment camps. If the US buys oil, who does it buy oil from? Who are the US companies that are being given preferential contracts in Iraq? Why have US oil companies been receiving record profits since the end of the Iraq war?

    Why did the US not create order, and instead lawlessness prevail in Iraq? Why did it invade on false pretexts?

    For you, none of these are provocations, because it is your country that is perpetrating these acts of theft, murder, and warmongering.
  • Storm_Rider
    Most of those 90,000 Iraqi Muslims were murdered by Muslim terrorists following Allah's commands in the Quran. The remainder were Muslim terrorists themselves, killed by American troops fighting in just war.

    Islamic Sharia Law is lawlessness; the law of the jungle.
  • Storm_Rider
    Political/Military Islamists are responsible for the civilian deaths in Iraq, just as Political/Military Nazis were responsible for the civilian deaths in Germany during World War II. Whoever starts a war of aggression is responsible for their own acts of murder, and for the just war then waged against the aggressor. The Islamist aggression against the United States began on September 11, 2001.

    The United States is not backing the murder of Muslims, we are killing our violent enemies in acts of just war - most just happen to be Muslims. The vast majority of those murdered Iraqi civilians were killed by other Muslims - you know - Terrorists. During World War II the United States killed German Christians by the hundreds of thousands.
  • Shukri
    Please don't scapegoat others for the faults of the US invasion. Those 90,000 Iraqi's would not have been killed otherwise.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8001138.stm
    http://tinyurl.com/crn7xe
    http://tinyurl.com/dyvgan
  • Storm_Rider
    There is no scapegoat here. The blame for war deaths lays on the bloody hands of the aggressor; that was Nazi Germany in the 1930's and 40's, and Totalitarian Islam today.

    Sew the wind - reap the whirlwind.

    Don't be fooled, Shukri; we know who you are. You are the enemy.
  • Beejj
    Yes, Storm Rider, one can only point the finger at Islam when a majority of its followers commit acts of terrorism. Always good for a laugh is our Shukri.
  • Storm_Rider
    Shukri: "invasions and occupations" by western countries causes terrorism."

    No, that's Osama bin Laden's line. Political/Military Islam its self is the cause of Islamic terrorism, because that is what it's "prophet" advocated. Invasion and occupation is how this destructive form of Totalitarianism has been spread for 14 centuries. Terrorism and wars of conquest is how Islam conquered the Christian Byzantine Empire, Christian North Africa, Christian Spain and a portion of the Christian Balkans. Political/Military Islam its self is the terrorizer, conqueror and occupier of nations. Starting on September 11, 2001; Totalitarian Islam began its invasion of the United States. No, Shukri, the United States is fighting just war in defense of life and liberty.
  • Shukri
    Invasion and occupations cause terrorism. This is the belief of anyone who knows something about the on-the-ground situation. I'm sorry that you choose to disregard your own nation's intelligence experts, such as Michael Scheuer:

    "In the long run, we're not safer because we're still operating on the assumption that we're hated because of our freedoms, when in fact we're hated because of our actions in the Islamic world." - http://tinyurl.com/7sf38b
  • Storm_Rider
    Invasions and occupations are features of Political/Military Islam, and it has been happening since the seventh century. When non-Muslim nations fight back, you Islamists start crying "Invasion and Occupation."

    We are hated because of our freedoms, because human freedom is always a threat to Totalitarian Law and Rule - Sharia, Nazi, Communist, etc. etc. You and Osama bin Laden and Michael Scheuer should all write a book together.
  • Shukri
    It's unfortunate that you have adopted a blame-game stance similar to the truthers, who claim that 9/11 was an inside job. The thing is, you can't ignore who the perpetrators are.

    The US has invaded and occupied Iraq and Afghanistan, and continues to sponsor the occupation of Palestine. Ignoring the facts won't solve the situation
  • JEWHAWK
    If I were a green beret and had you in custody,I'd happily TORTURE you
    just to ask your name and address.

    You'd BEG to be waterboarded.

    Why?

    Because you SUCK.
  • JEWHAWK
    Dear Infidelesto,I'm deeply concerned about the "new directives"
    set by the Obama's administration regarding the use of torture.
    In my opinion,it will diminish CIA's capability to operate as it
    should.American people will demand nothing less than 100%
    of success,but FIRST the FBI,CIA and other intelligence services
    must have the tools to achieve that goal.

    Today,Robert Gibbs (I don't like this fellow) told that the previous
    administration's actions regarding waterboarding that:
    "Nobody in America is above the law..."
    meaning that they CAN be prosecuted!!

    I simply CAN'T watch this happen.It will be a PERSONAL
    VICTORY for Al-Qaeda.They'll LAUGH at you.

    If I were the American president,I'd allow EVERYTHING
    including waterboarding using the Kitchen's sink in
    order to gather data to prevent even a SINGLE American death.
  • JEWHAWK
    MORAL GROUND??

    What about DANIEL PEARL'S beheading? How MORAL
    was that?

    Ah,it was the ISLAMIC MORAL.Something more becoming to a
    Seventh century horde.
  • Shukri
    Daniel Pearl's killing was a crime, and the perpetrator was sentenced to death in Pakistan. http://tinyurl.com/csjubv

    Your attempts to blame Islam are very misguided and unreasonable.
  • Shukri, if you're such a good Muslim, then why don't you join us and help us root out the radicals within your own religion. You have to admit, Islam isn't just about religion but also has legal, political, economic and military components. Ones that must be rooted out in order to be compatible with western style democracy
  • Shukri
    I don't think western-style is in fact compatible with human existence. For instance, look at the number of shootings: people killing themselves and their families, young kids and all.

    I don't think I want that imported to a Muslim country.
  • Beejj
    Ironic, isn't it? The greater the freedom afforded a people, the greater the licence afforded the bad guys to do their bad deeds. Throttle a country and its crime rate falls. Russia's crime rate has escalated since the fall of communism, but should it revert to that which was in order to restore that which was? You clearly think so, but I disagree. Human existence, as you put it, will always be such that the baddies will have their day if society is structured to value freedom, and this has been the case ever since Cain invented murder. Freedom comes at a price, but its benefits far outweigh its costs. You refer to the shootings, etc, that happen in the West. Yes, they are tragic, but how many such deaths are the result of religious dogma? Indeed, I would like to know how the number of Islam-inspired deaths compares with "Western" deaths. For example, how many Islam-inspired deaths have occurred in Iraq over the past few years? How many honour murders happen each year in the West?

    Of course you do not want it imported into a Muslim country, for it would be evidence of a freedom you revile. Given that this is your opinion, why don't you depart America and set up tent in one of the foul Islamic hell-holes? You'd be happier there, wouldn't you? Or do you enjoy the freedom you so revile?
  • Shukri
    There, of course, needs to be a balance between freedoms and safety. But who determines it as such? In the case of Islam, it is the Creator. Why? Because the Creator knows more about the benefits than the creation. The laws of Islam are perfectly reasonable and do not contradict the human intellect. Look at any ruling by a qualified Mufti (Jurist) and it's always balanced and clearly supported, with the goal being that which is most beneficial to human kind

    example: http://bit.ly/12Kvzf
  • Beejj
    As I read your words I thought about the religious police in countries such as Saudi and Iran, prowling the streets to find women who have some hair showing. Nice balance, that, between freedom and safety. Will women whose hair is not fully covered be in danger of attack? Are Muslim men THAT macho? The creator had some weird ideas regarding women, but I suppose living all alone for such a long time does strange things to the brain. Poor old Allah.

    Um, I seem to recall occasions when "qualified" muftis sentenced rape victims to be lashed and imprisoned. Very balanced, that. Most beneficial to humankind.
  • Shukri
    Of course, there are miscarriages of justice and police abuse and all the rest. But which justice system is perfect? Islam comes closer than any other justice system to solving crime in society with a reasonable balance of freedom vs. safety. It's just another proof of its divine origin.
  • Beejj
    Um, what was that about always balanced and clearly supported?
  • hellosnackbar
    A qualified Mufti??
    I know a lot of talented people in the financial world and even a muslim banker would know; that to suggest a mufti
    give some sagacious advice on matters financial; would make him a laughing stock.
    Financial fatwas by Shukri the sage; a must for all who wish to enhance their careers.
    But with Allah whispering in your ear you should try horse racing.
  • Shukri
    Islamic finance is the least exploitative form of commercial transactions imaginable. For example, look at Islamic insurance, which involves the formation of a contract which states that the parties, the company and the insured, are *looking out* for the welfare of others. If one of them gets hurt, all of them chip in to pay a small amount. At the end of the year, whatever remaining unspent premium less admin fees is actually *returned* to the consumer! In other words, in an Islamic insurance contract, the insurance company actually returns your premiums back to you if its unused!
  • Storm_Rider
    The "values" of Islam are expressed as a function of population percentage.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8789NMWZ9EI&eurl...

    All people are created equal, but not all cultures or all religions.
  • hellosnackbar
    Thanks for thatSR the muslims are very successful with their breeding program .
    I wonder what the future holds extrapolating from the data provided???
    Just been watching and listening to Ayan Hirsi Ali(just noticed what an amazingly beautiful woman she is).
    Unlike many of her less imaginative contempories she escaped the clutches of Islam and aquired an education(what about that Shukri?what a sinner).
    Education taught her what most of us here think:Islam is a stinking pile of dogshit.
    Not surprisingly Islamic "scholars"are totally against educating
    women (it gives them too much power)and they get unislamic ideas like "freedom of thought and free speech".
    The role of women is solely to provide a breeding receptacle for
    the next generation of the mindless faithful.
    Freedom to exercise personal choice would endanger the political
    ambitions of the ummah.
    Come on Shukri tell us you don't believe in arranged(forced) marriages;tell us you believe in equal educational opportunities for women;tell us that a muslimah can leave Islam without the "murder saction".
    Tell us that Hirsi Ali has the right to her point of view.
    Let me make a prediction:You won't answer any of these questions!!
  • Storm_Rider
    "I don't think western-style is in fact compatible with human existence. For instance, look at the number of shootings: people killing themselves and their families, young kids and all."

    Those evils of our society violate our Judeo-Christian values, and are thus the exception. The coercion, slavery, murder and mass-murder of Islamist societies are an expression of their values, and are thus the rule.
  • Shukri
    It is clear what Islam stands for (http://tinyurl.com/7u4vgg).

    Your accusations are due to your own misunderstandings.
  • hellosnackbar
    Shukri I'll tell you what Islam stands for :
    It stands for misery,subjugation and enslavement to a barbaric dogma promulgated first by a psychopath and then by similar programmed psychopaths now called jihadis.(and anybody who supports this monstrous death cult such as yourself)
    Here's a theroem of what civilised people define as right
    and just:
    1Freedom of expression,artistic ,written,vocal or sexual.
    AND the right to leave and criticise any religion or political movement
    2The right to follow any religion or political movement
    provided that they do not preach violent sedition and disrupt the peace,(Islam fails again)
    3Equal rights for women and children(another failure)
    4Secular law administered by an elected government with appropriate minor changes as dictated by circumstance.(no privileges for special groups except minor matters such as holidays).
    The law should be formulated according to the highest standards of ethics and justice.(Islam fails yet again).
    5Secular courts of justice where everyone is equal before the law.(fails)
    5 No false charities supporting political or religious groups whose purpose is to further their influence.
    (especially those which support ethnic cleansing or terror) fails.
    6No unsubstantiated hate accusations.
    7No indoctrination of the young with hate dogma.
    In short Islam fails on all aspects and therefore Islam is congruent with FAILURE.
    Shukri you are evidentally a failure since you believe in failure.
    And for the brain dead of Islam and their faux prophet;
    failure is their future.
    There is no place in the civilised world for dyed in the wool arse holes.
    Islam a death cult for dogma indoctrinated dickheads.
    QUAD ERAT DEMONSTRANDUM!!
  • Shukri
    Islam is a true religion that only has what is beneficial for people. There are 1.5 billion+ Muslims in the world. Clearly, Islam works to improve the human condition and create a relationship with the Creator that is eternal and ever-lasting.

    You say that freedom is the mot juste, yet this is not true. The financial crisis was caused by people who had too much freedom to do as they please, and they created a situation that is causing intense suffering to millions of people worldwide.

    It is the same with Islam and human life. If Islam says to dress modestly, it is only because this is the best and most perfect way of dress. If we do otherwise, we will only find out later to our cost and detriment. It's the same for all of the other Islamic commandments. It's wiser to obey the Creator.

    When all else fails, read the instructions.

    http://bit.ly/hTgKs
  • Shukri
    re: Necrowulf

    Islamic law is in fact fair, just and civilized.

    Shari'ah law is not proof of God's existence, as that is not it's purpose. Rather, you can understand God when you understand that life does not create itself from nothing. Where there is a design, there is a designer. Study any of earths systems in-depth and you will understand how truly magnificent the creation is. Then turn around and study the ant, one of the smallest of creatures, and you can be similarly amazed at the intense complexity of such large and small creations. Again, these types of things do not create themselves.

    "Islam says that I AM..."

    Actually, Islam says that:

    "We have honoured the sons of Adam; provided them with transport on land and sea; given them for sustenance things good and pure; and conferred on them special favours, above a great part of our creation. "

    notice that it is talking about just Muslims, but human beings in general.

    "Can you not see the error of islam?"

    The evidence that you proffered is false. If you truly wish to be reasonable, then please read what Islam actually has to say about things. Here's a good starting point:

    http://tinyurl.com/7u4vgg
  • Necrowulf
    Interesting that you mention that, if islam was so good and its law "divine" then why ...ohhh why is it so unfair, unjust and barbaric?

    DO you use shariah law as proof of gods existance? Then that proof is as good as someone who claims he saw a fat bloke waving a candle on a black hole at 20 light years from here with a back garden refraction telescope.

    Islam says that I AM less than a pig, it also says that women is mens property, it also says that camel pee is good and that the earth is flat!

    Can you not see the error of islam? Can you not see that so many msulism are running away from islamic countries and islamic laws? Can you not see the increase in apostasy?

    Are you afraid to even conceive that Allah doesnt exist and that all that islam is but a mere invention of a desert sun stroked, paedophile epileptic thief who loved to fuck goats and drink camel urine?
  • Necrowulf
    Shukri.

    Are you a scientist? Have you done any science at all at an university level? Have you read scientific books?(Not thwe ones aproved by your imam) have you read any scientific journal? Apparantely not.


    i] have studied biology, I have spent my entire life seeking knowledge and readingh everything from science related subjects, like physics, geology, astronomy and the sort... none of those prove to me that god exists, in fact as soon as you start to understand how everything was formed you will see that everything is imperfect, which then begs the question. Is Allah imperfect? Can a perfect being create the imperfect?

    There is no creation, but gravity, friction, energy, mass, gases, atoms and molecules.

    Is your quran a good source for science? I beg to differ, ti even says an old greek theory that sperm comes from the spine. it is so old that not even the greeks at the time of mohammed believed it

    Humans are formed from "a gushing fluid" that issues "from between the loins and the ribs." 86:5-7


    "He ... spread out the earth."
    Sounds like a flat earth to me. 13:3

    "And the earth have We spread out."
    The earth is flat according to the Quran. 15:19

    The earth is fixed and does not move. 27:61

    Allah made the stars as missiles to throw at devils. 67:5
    Do you know what stars are? Not comets, meteors, asteroids or other debris, nope... they are giants of gas, burning its fuel using nuclear energy.


    "And hath made the moon a light"
    This verse implies that the moon produces its own light, rather than reflecting light from the sun. 71:16



    So Allah, mohammed and the quran never said this?
    3:28 "Let not the believers take disbelievers for their friends in preference to believers."

    Allah stamped wretchedness upon the Jews because they killed the prophets and disbelieved Allah's revelations. 2:61

    Allah is an enemy to the disbelievers. 2:98

    "But those who keep their duty to Allah will be above them [non-muslims] on the Day of Resurrection." 2:212

    Doesnt this verse implies that you are superior to me?

    Disbelievers will be deaf, dumb, and blind. 2:171

    I'm not dumb, nor deaf and definetely not blind, would you say metaphorical? Nope, not even metaphorical.

    Allah does not guide disbelievers. 2:264


    UYou, know, what i find most irritating, we waste our time explaining to you our theories, expecting that you answer and address them accordingly, but you never do... always change the subject or just say something completely non-sense
  • JEWHAWK
    "TRUE RELIGION"?

    "BENEFICIAL FOR PEOPLE"?

    "ISLAM WORKS TO IMPROVE THE HUMAN CONDITION"?


    Are you PROUD of being a PATHOLOGICAL LIAR,Shukry?

    Or are you merely parroting that devilish,terrorist handbook called Koran?

    ADVICE:

    CEASE and DESIST of spreading your muck in this forum.You're NOT welcomed in here.
  • hellosnackbar
    Dogma again Shukri!
    I don't accept the existence of the creator you refer to; still less on her message being passed on by a sociopathic desert bandit.
    Freedom is the "mot juste "because it has the credibility of logic(apparently an alien concept
    in your thinking ;forbidden as you are from thinking for yourself).
    Islam is an irrelevance in my life except that it
    poses a danger to my life and those of my children.
    The day will come Shukri when Islam will become an historical comedy ; people will
    laugh at uneducated bearded idiots issueing fatuous fatwas on how people should behave.
    It's only the PC traitors that prevent a comical
    "life of Mo"on the basis of the poisonous doctrine of cultural equivalence.
    There's a big difference between kneeling down and bending down(geddit?)
    Laughing at Islam's black comedy keeps us aware
    of its corrosive influence.
    And don't confuse contempt for fear!
    I have No respect for your insane beliefs;since I
    see only good reasons to oppose them.
    BTW I didn't hear any Imams opposing greedy
    bankers and warning of the recession to come.
    And of course incompetent Allah was silent as usual.
  • Necrowulf
    hahhahahahaha... wait, what?

    Was this real? You were being sarcastic right?

    Have you ever paid attention to the news that Infidelesto and Kal_el post here in Infidels are Cool?

    Freedom of choosing your religion, freedom to women, freedom of thought, freedom to choose how you want to behave according to what you feel is right sexually, like being gay, or crossdressing... freedom to create scientific experiments, education, laws to protect children and the family. This is bad according to your view, right?

    No wonder islamic countries are a violent pit hole, honour muderers, other religions suffering prosecution and the sort.


    Before you go on saying that islam suffers prosecution on the west I beg you to research it more... Islam barely receive any backslash, and the ones that are marked are in fact muslim liees trying to get money from someone else...

    Like that girl who staged a islamic backslash, the hairdresser who didnt want to show her hair but still wanted to be chosen between hundreds fo applicants.

    Shukri... on what world are you living in?
  • Shukri
    You do not have the right to slander or libel, for example. So "free speech" isn't really free. In reality, all freedoms are restricted in some way.

    Freedoms are interrupted when the rights others are concerned. Islamic sacred law bans all that which is harmful. So a Muslim doesn't have the freedom to consume alcohol, for instance, because it is a substance that kills tens of thousands of people a year (drunk driving), in addition to untold amounts of spousal abuse, destroying of children and homes, health problems, addictions, etc.

    For a non-Muslim, however, the Islamic ruling about alcohol doesn't apply. Non-Muslims in a Muslim society are allowed to drink alcohol, because the prohibitions of Islamic law generally only apply to the Muslims.

    As for homosexuality, this is prohibited not only in Islam, but in all the major religions.

    Islam protects women. To put naked women on a billboard in order to sell a product is not freedom, but subjugation. This is why Muhammad Ali told his daughter:

    "Hana, everything that God made valuable in the world is covered and hard to get to. Where do you find diamonds? Deep down in the ground,covered and protected. Where do you find pearls? Deep down at the bottom of the ocean, covered up and protected in a beautiful shell. Where do you find gold? Way down in the mine, covered over with layers and layers of rock. You've got to work hard to get to them."

    He looked at me with serious eyes. "Your body is sacred. You're far more precious than diamonds and pearls, and you should be covered too."

    http://tinyurl.com/clxh4f
  • SirWilhelm
    Actually, alcohol is good for you, if used in moderation, but Allah, or Mohammed, knew their followers lacked self control, so they had to make a law banning it for them. But they didn't have cars when the law was made, maybe they were afraid of camel collisions? And Muslims do quite well destroying children and homes without using alcohol.

    Yes, convenient that, letting non-Muslims drink in non-Muslim countries. Could it be because they need the skills the non-Muslims have? Wonder how many would stay if they made prohibition universal?

    Those "naked" women know where their pictures are going to go, and they get paid well for allowing it to be put there. That is freedom Muslim women only dream of, if they are even aware of such possibilities, which I doubt many of them are, knowing how Muslims try to keep their women ignorant.

    Her body was sacred all right, just like the diamonds, pearls, and gold he owned by looting caravans and villages. He OWNED her body and didn't want anyone to see how nice his property was because they'd want to steal it, no honor amongst thieves ya know?

    Muslims don't understand that it's the woman's body, to cover or reveal as she sees fit. And it's the man's problem if he can't control himself, but then, in Muslim society, men don't have to have self control around women. Their logic is circular, with them at the center of their universe.

    Muslims have no self control, and their religion recognizes that by telling them to cover up the "meat", rather than try to teach or learn self control.
  • Shukri
    The Quran acknowledges that there is good in alcohol, 'but the evil of it is greater than the good". See: http://tinyurl.com/7qtxg

    Also, human beings have a higher purpose, and I think that people in all of the faith traditions, especially women, understand that degrading themselves is not the path to success.

    modesty in the Bible: http://tinyurl.com/5wrf25
  • Storm_Rider
    The Quran is not from God, but from another god called Allah, who is much more concerned with murder than with alcohol.

    Quran, Surah 8, Verse 60: "Prepare for them whatever force and cavalry ye are able of gathering to strike terror into the hearts of the enemies of Allah"

    Quran, Surah 4, Verse 56: "Those who have disbelieved our signs, we shall roast them in fire"

    Quran, Surah 47, Verse 4: "Therefore when ye meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks and when ye have caused a bloodbath among them bind a bond firmly on them"

    Quran, Surah 4, Verse 89: "They but wish that ye should reject faith...so take not friends from their ranks untill they flee in the way of Allah, but if they turn renegades, seize them and kill them wherever ye find them"

    Quran, Surah 8, Verse 39: "Fight them until there is no dissension and the religion is entirely Allah's

    God Himself said this: "You shall not murder"
  • JEWHAWK
    Shukry,I DON'T GIVE A DAMN about what you think,nor what your satanic sect preaches.I'm quite aware of its consequences,though.

    "Islam protects women".
    It's a LIE.Who lies, a LIAR is.

    "As for homosexuality, this is prohibited not only in Islam, but in all the major religions."

    But in Israel there's a GAY FESTIVAL or parade or something like that,DESPITE the Bible's prohibition.I don't like gays,but HATE even more to do any harm to them,or even impose any censorship on them.WHY?Because it's not RIGHT.


    ..."Your body is sacred"
    Tell this to the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of infidel boys and girls RAPED by muslims throughout the last 500 years.Tell something about the poor Armenians
    raped in front of their families without water and food in the middle of the Syrian desert...

    See,I PROVED that you are not even WORTHY to participate in this forum.
  • Shukri
    Islam doesn't interfere in the personal lives of people. Even in the most extreme case of the Saudi's, the Mutawwa only regulates external societal behavior. They don't come investigate people in their homes.

    There is a lesson in this: that *open* deviation in society should not be allowed, or it will lead to a path that is detrimental to the entire society. Look at all of the liberal societies who worship absolute freedom and let people do whatever they wish. In 100-150 years, their populations will be extinct because they don't have the backbone to raise children, and hence their birth rates have become too low to be sustainable.

    On the other hand, look at religious people. What does religion bring? It brings family. Family values bring about a large family. Just from birth rates alone, you can tell that when people worship God, their continuity is ensured, and when they abandon God, their destruction is assured.
  • Beejj
    Islam does not interfere in the personal lives of people??? Yes, and Auschwitz was a holiday camp.
  • SirWilhelm
    "They don't come investigate people in their homes." No, they don't want to interfere with them raping their wives, or beating their women, or commitng "honor" killings, or selling their child daughters.

    Birthrates are low in educated societies because parents want to be able to give the children they do have the best that they can afford, not bury themselves raising more than they can support, so they don't have to sell off some of their daughters to support the remainder.

    Islamic family values right, See above. Then add teaching hate for infidels, teaching they'll find glory dieing in jihad and killing infidels including women and children. teaching it's good to lie and decieve infidels. Muslims learn destruction from worshiping their god, and recieve destruction when they practice jihad.
  • Necrowulf
    you never answered my question. But here goes an extra one, but before you answer this, can you tell me what would happen to Eddie Izzard?
    Can I go out with a women unrelated to me in Saudi Arabia,
  • JEWHAWK
    SHUKRY:

    "There is a lesson in this: that *open* deviation in society should not be allowed, or it will lead to a path that is detrimental to the entire society."

    It is NOT up to you to decide that.

    SHUKRY:

    "Just from birth rates alone, you can tell that when people worship God, their continuity is ensured, and when they abandon God, their destruction is assured."

    WE worship God.You worship ALLAH,a completely different entity.Our destruction
    won't come from God,but from your brothers who
    commit SUICIDE-BOMBINGS,BEHEADINGS,and
    ramming airliners into our buildings.That's is assured.
  • Necrowulf
    "But in Israel there's a GAY FESTIVAL or parade or something like that,DESPITE the Bible's prohibition.I don't like gays,but HATE even more to do any harm to them,or even impose any censorship on them.WHY?Because it's not RIGHT."

    You just earned yourself another fan!
  • Beejj
    Hell, I've had it with this moron. Can somebody else take up the cudgels, please?
  • Necrowulf
    Beejj, I have to agree with you...

    He is just repeating himself! I've already addressed him about the alcohol. He still insists on it...

    Christianity might find homosexuality wrong, but in the western world you are not jailed for it!

    Tell me, what would happen if Eddie Izzard would walk on an islamic street dressed up as a women like in this picture http://www.instantriverside.com/wp-content/uplo...
    he is straight, and he is a british comedian... He can do this in the UK or the US, or other european countries.. but Shukri, what would happen to him if he did that in an islamic country? You say sharia law doesnt cover non-muslims, then prove it to me!

    I have already proven to you that it does indeed cover non-muslims, to such a degree that we are worse than slaves and women!

    Shukri, diamonds and gold, they are only sought after because WE placed a value on it, if we would place a value on water or oxygen, it would be far higher than anything because we need those two to live... whilst the other valuable metals...we dont
  • JEWHAWK
    My dear Necrowulf,this guy is here to create trouble.He doesn't CARE if what he writes makes sense or not...
    Read about one of the pillars of Islam:"LIE TO THE INFIDELS",
    which they call TAQYIA.That's what he does in here with a professional level.
    Shukry is nothing but a PROFESSIONAL LIAR.
  • JEWHAWK
    Shukry,not only Daniel Pearl's head was severed,but it was in the name of Allah.If Pakistan "punished",it was because the west FORCED
    a harsh sentence.What about the others in Iraq,for instance?
    Your religion is a DISGRACE,a modern-day PLAGUE.I regard muslims as LOCUSTS.
  • Shukri
    Pakistan sentenced Daniel Pearl's murderers to death, and you *still* have a problem with that?

    Is it that you only want to condemn Islam, no matter what the facts are?
  • JEWHAWK
    Do you want MORE facts that are damning to the muslims?Are you sure?
    The problem is that THERE'S NO SPACE to depict each of'em...it would surpass the CHINESE PHONE BOOK.

    Yes,I DO CONDEMN Islam,for being a DESPICABLE DEATH CULT.That's simply the raw truth,bluntly speaking.

    Now I remember another DEFENSELESS Jew,then 85 year-old,named
    LEON KLINGHOFFER...He was aboard the italian ship ACHILLE LAURO,when MUSLIMS assassinated him and did what your whole race crave to do with us,Jews...TOSSED him out from the ship into the Mediterranean Sea...Ahh...HE WAS ON A WHEELCHAIR!!
    Was that a good start?
    The list is ENDLESS,so I won't write about it ,but if you should INSIST.
  • JEWHAWK
    He was LUCKY...I'd give him the SAME treatment Daniel Pearl
    received from his pals.

    I am completely FOR torture against those who wish to harm us .The
    terrorists have valuable information that actually could save LIVES,
    so WHY NOT extract them out from their mouths?

    JACK BAUER is right.
  • Mike
    Moron.

    McCain called waterboarding torture, ya think he might know something about it.

    You're a putz.
  • Christine_S
    I know this is a late reply, but I just came across this post. Yes, I think John McCain knows about torture. I also think that the people in the Twin Towers that chose to jump to certain death because their flesh was burning also know something of it. However, I am certain that you and those scumbags held in our military prisons do not. Why don’t you stop watching cute animal videos on Youtube and check out some of the sites listed in the Blogroll to the right of this page? Watch a beheading or two, maybe a stoning, someone being burned alive or little girls having their genitals mutilated - those are the hobbies of the filthy crap you and the other liberals are crying to protect. These detainees were not picked up for littering. If there is the smallest chance that they can spit out some information to save lives of innocent people, then we need to do whatever is necessary, including actual torture! Don’t have the stomach for it? How many tears did you shed for those choosing death over burning on 9/11? Have you forgotten? These are the images that haunt me.
    I’ll just mention briefly about abortion, since I’m sure you also do not know when life begins. Who do you think has a right to life? A precious baby or a blood-thirsty, filthy terrorist hell-bent on killing every last non-muslim on the planet? When is the last time you took 2 minutes out of your life to give a voice to the innocent who cannot speak for themselves?
  • Kal_El
    Christine_S

    Welcome! Thanks for the great comment, however I wouldn't hold my breath
    waiting for a coherent reply from the leftards or the islamoturds. :)
  • Christine_S
    Thanks…and I won’t. Coherent and leftard…hmmm… Can these two words be used together???
  • Kal_El
    Yes, as long as the two words do not both apply to the same subject ;) think
    of them as antonyms hehehe.
  • Tonto
    I'll tell ya what Mike. You join me out in the Arizona desert with my bic lighter and all the cactus spines I can gather, and I'll show both you what torture is. Waterboarding is what our Navy Seals do for fun. You're just a pussy. I'd have you begging for waterboarding in seconds.
  • Kal_El
    Tonto,

    That was AWESOME :D
  • McCain is dead wrong on the torture issue
  • JEWHAWK
    Are you COMPARING JOHN McCAIN with some
    RAGHEAD?

    Isn't that a MORONIC comparison?
    I won't call you any names.It's not needed.
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