Obama: US Response to 9-11 was an “act contrary to our ideals”

because violence begets more violence, and responding to fear with hate will only do the same.. we have evolved together as a species for thousands of years.. we are better than this killing each other in vain business

Too bad Cain didn't know about "we are better than this killing each other in vain business" before he killed Abel. Seems that as far as History goes, we started out killing each other, and we've just been getting better at it since then. If you look even more closely at our ancient history, you'll find that's what all our wars were about back then, fighting in the name of our "gods" Perhaps it's not a coincidence that the war under discussion here is a war between the followers of Allah and the followers of Yahweh and his Son. Yes, violence begets more violence, we've learned that all too well. As far as our being "better than this killing each other in vain business", I'm afraid that remains to be seen.

loving your knowledge of HIStory.. thanks for the response.. I just try to stay optimistic and hope, individually, we can enjoy our lives, and, collectively, perhaps, we can conclude that working together as a human race on this earth, confident in being GOD's creations, is better than risking innocent lives over thousands of years of old, played out hate

Wake up and smell the blood - this universe that is being deified has death as a necessary mechanism. This universe that is loved so much with its cannabilistic trajectory is a tragedy in need of a SAVIOR.

We need to wake up and smell the science before we're the butt of our own joke - the science of this universe ends at its borders (beyond that it's an open ball game). Scientists STILL haven't got a telescope that can see that far and never will. Is it too much for our little brains to understand that this universe is just a tainted shroud that will be circumcised?

Having NO death (in a universe) is a not just a good thing IT'S A GOD THING. Of course if one likes five year old children run over coming home from school and other such senseless acts one can keep on worshiping this god/universe with its BRUTAL evolutionary mechanisms that will eat all of us alive if but for the return of THE CHRIST. Do you think 'the powers and principalities of darkness' need us for their work? No, we are just vessels of destruction utilized by their undoings and slaves to their manipulations (death being one of them).

GOD made Himself known through the book known as His Word or The Bible. Who would I rather worship - a god that takes 13.5 plus billion years to pull off a shaky plan or The God that gets His plan done in 6 days? When our hearts are open and our minds submitted our eyes will be opened.

Awesome - duno_marrano: The spiritually blind, are ignorant a dirt, not knowing the the truth. They are destroyed for lack of knowledge. How ignorant is this Obama? He is one of the most ignorant man spiritually this world has seen in action, in a long time. He's that 'angel of light,' full of darkness and hate.
Ideals ? - Obama has none. You see Obama perceives the World "as he is," not how it really is. Obama accuses others of how he is, a dead give-a-way. God is NOT fooled, and will bring Obama to nothing, because nothing came from nothing, nothing never did!

I have a pretty good knowledge of history, but the more I learn, the more I
find there is to learn, but even worse, much of what the "main stream"
knows and teaches is wrong or outright distortion. For instance, you would
probably not believe the true story of story of who created, and how the human
race was created, and how, for the thousands of years you speak of, we
have fought their wars for them. Does not the followers of your God fight even
now with the followers of Allah? Do really know who your God is, or who
Allah is?
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oh mannnn
This has been such an interesting exchange!!!

I really do feel a universal connection inside of my heart and mind.. and outside in the world.. It's hard to explain without sounding a bit hoakey..

But there were other religion type situations, where people worshiped a sort of unidentifiable spiritual connection

This situations occurred prior to and during the spread of judeo christian muslim type ideology
These "non believers" were actually brutally massacred throughout HIStory in the name of one man GOD.

But who is to say what the be it and end all is?.
I like the point that the universe is so far beyond the reach of our understanding,

Perhaps if we just do what we know is right in our hears.. with as little government influence as possible.. there may be some hope for our immortal souls ;)

And if not, at least we should try to live happily and in peace and enjoy what time we do have on this magnificent planet

Call me an idealist.. I've got a little house in the woods, I've completed a full year of law school..

Life here is good

yes, I have a good idea of who God is. I also have a very good idea of how all religions have been used to enslave the unwary and how God has been made to appear as if incorporating evil. Evil is mankind's creation as it channels the 'necessary' for the species.

I also know that Jesus The Christ and Lucifer (Satan) are our brothers and we should only follow Him that frees with the truth and not Him that enslaves with lies. Therein I know the difference also, thanks be to YHWH and by the blood (and name and spirit) of The Christ, Jesus.

And you probably call them aliens and I call them angels, you say evolution and I say either/or creation (as it doesn't matter though Genesis One does dress up like an evolutionary script for a pastoral people, with some inaccuracies incorporated by centuries of translation/transcribing?).

I cannot let this pass. You have a good idea of who God is? No you don't. How can you have the slightest notion of an entity, the existence for which there is not an atom of proof? Don't start saying there is no proof for its non-existence: the onus of proof is upon those who proclaim its existence. It's all in your mind, quite possibly rammed in there when, as a little one, you were at your most receptive and vulnerable. The reason belief in God lasts longer than belief in Santa Claus is that one threatens eternal agony for disbelief.

So you've climbed inside my head and you now know what I know. While you're in there, can you please clean up the mess child abuse caused?

It would be wrong for me to say that my opinion is any better than any other person's. Religion and experience of God/god is up to the believer/receiver and it is their right to have their own understanding. I love this country (USA) because it allows for religious freedom/tolerance and usually supports the oppressed. I would die for this country and for the right of any citizen to be how/who they choose (I've tried to join the military during both Iraq wars and they turned me down because my eyes were too bad).

If I look at Jesus (whom I believe is The Christ) I (feel that I) know I see God. Can you tell me I'm wrong? Yes, that is your right to speak your mind (at least until the fascist takeover I see on the horizon).

I hold to faith not as well as I should, I hold to righteous living not as well as I should. Years of struggling with mental and emotional health issues have left me with a life full of stupid mistakes (none criminal thank God). I don't make a mistake in believing, I make a mistake in not adhering to what I feel I should do (and feel someday I 'll be capable of doing God willing).

Just for the record - it is because of the mental/emotional health issues that I am fixated on the possibilities of a fascist future. We all remember who they started removing from society first. I'm not afraid of that kind of future, I'll be happy to leave this world, I'm tired of the silliness and the selfishness of every last one of us.

I have a fairly good history of predicting the future. Natural disasters, weather patterns, geo-political shifts, et. al. In 1989 I predicted an attack on New York City as a symbol of Babylon, I predicted a megalomaniac christian response, another 'Great Depression/Slump (as I think you UKer's call it) as well as other things to come. I'm not a prophet and not some manifestation/avatar of God, I'm just a working class man that used to work in construction and now doesn't have a job.

I don't care if you believe my prediction claims and I don't care about the future anymore. No one ever believes me even after I'm right. I've had two criminal attempts on my life and I'm really hoping the next one is successful (so I don't have to see the other things I've predicted come to pass).

Please shut the door to my head on the way out, people always complain about the smell my rotting past makes.

I have read all three of your replies to my comments, dno_marrano, and I thank you for your courtesy. I wish you success and unending happiness.

oh thanks, you do the same.

BTW, I didn't throw the child abuse crap in there to make you feel bad, I wanted to shed some light on my perspectives.

child abuse = mental health issues = fear of people doing to the mentally challenged like the nazis did

It is most important for me to remember because in our rush to punish criminals in this country we seem to be forgetting that some of them were victims too. I am not a criminal thanks be to God and I have no patience for any that are. I am a strong proponent of castration (and/or chopping off hands) for sex offenders of all shades for instance. It isn't just because I want to see them punished, I think such measures would actually help them also.

Please feel free to disagree vehemently when led to do so, I'm capable of handling it.

BTW - I am a firm believer in science as a tool to understand and manipulate the universe we are in. I BELIEVE IN SCIENCE. However, I also understand that the science used to explain this universe can't do anything but theorize about what is beyond or before this universe. Therein it is STILL the onus of science (and in fact ALL RELIGION also) to PROVE to us what came before or lies beyond. (For the record I also believe that ALL RELIGIONS have some degree of truth in them and in fact are THE TRUTH for those that adhere to them - their right to do so, one I don't have any desire to change by force).

All religions and science have led us where? I don't have to tell someone like you where the world's religions have gotten us. I shouldn't have to tell someone like you where science has gotten us. Let us remember CLEARLY that nazi germany had both science AND religion behind it. Germany was both one of the most scientifically advanced countries at the time as well as sporting thriving christian and spiritualistic communities.

I choose to believe in what some call a fairy tale - I believe in a God that has no evil in Him. I'm not alone in this, apparently one of the greatest men in history believed this way (Jesus whom is called The Christ). I don't want to be in a universe without a God and I don't want to accept a God that could be responsible for the evil in this world. If either is the true reality I hope that it truly is lights out when I die.

And for the record I believe Luke was a scientist, albeit an early scientist. I believe he was trained in the same basics of science as were the 'greats' of Greece and he understood historical recording principles still in use (for instance - recording eyewitness accounts if one can't be present at an noteworthy event).

I also believe that there is a 'Star Wars' ending coming up in the future when everyone is fed the pablum 'oh, evil was just something those people brought on themselves'. Satan does not have a part in God, IMHO. I believe that when an innocent such as a child is harmed it is the work of a capricious machine (the universe). That is a machine that does not fully reflect the reality of The God I believe in and it is a machine some seek to deify 'as is'. Again, hopefully it's lights out if I'm wrong because that's just a lame, cheap whitewash for all those for whom this universe has been a smooth ride to believe in.

It is rational and moral to defend innocent human life, i.e.: to respond to our legitimate fear of violence, murder or wars of aggression. Failure to defend our God-given gift of life and our human right to the same is both irrational and immoral. Waging just war is rational and moral, failure to do so in the face of mass-murdering, liberty-destroying totalitarian enemies is irrational and immoral. We are now waging just war, just as we did in World War II against the totalitarian evils of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan.

The "evolution of our species" has not removed the presence of human evil, and we are commanded by God to love life, i.e.: defend life, and hate evil, i.e.: wage just war.

"I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death...therefore choose life..." Deuteronomy

"You who love the Lord, hate evil!" Psalm 97

"The fear of the Lord is to hate evil." Proverbs

let's just leave it to the Greats!

From George Washington's Farewell Address:

The unity of Government, which constitutes you One People, is also now dear to you.

It is justly so; for it is a main pillar in the edifice of your Real Independence, the support of your tranquillity at home, your Peace abroad; of your Safety; of your Prosperity; of that very Liberty, which you so highly prize.

But as it is easy to foresee, that, from different causes and from different quarters, much pains will be taken, many artifices employed, to weaken in your minds the conviction of this Truth;

as this is the point in your political fortress against which the batteries of internal and external enemies will be most constantly and actively (though often covertly and insidiously) directed,

It is of infinite moment, that you should properly estimate the immense value of your National Union to your collective and individual Happiness;

That you should cherish a cordial, habitual, and immovable attachment to it; accustoming yourselves to think and speak of it as of the Palladium of your political safety and prosperity;

Watching for its preservation with jealous anxiety; discountenancing whatever may suggest even a suspicion, that it can in any event be abandoned;

and indignantly frowning upon the first dawning of every attempt to Alienate any portion of our Country from the rest, or to enfeeble the sacred ties which now link together the various parts.

For this you have every inducement of sympathy and interest. Citizens, by birth or choice, of a Common Country, that country has a right to concentrate your affections.

The name of American, which belongs to you, in your national capacity, must always exalt the just pride of Patriotism, more than any appellation derived from local discriminations.

With slight shades of difference, you have the same religion, manners, habits, and political principles.

You have in a common cause fought and triumphed together; the Independence and Liberty you possess are the work of joint counsels, and joint efforts, of common dangers, sufferings, and successes.

George Washington = masonic hierarchy = crypto-muslim?

I advise you to do your own research

Has this all been a long time coming?

um not exactly..

the problem with conspiracy theory is it's just that..
all thought..
no action..

I'd rather be optimistic and would advise anyone to do the same,

And be clear in your meaning if you expect a new term to become commonly used

George Washington was a mason, that is not conspiracy theory

masonic 'theology' mirroring muslim theology (on significant levels), that is not theory, that is fact.

As Moynihan said "Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts."

one side played against the other for some 'greater' purpose. Aren't our 'leaders' great? That is NOT a fact and SPECULATION but a question more than worthy of asking.

Here's another great Moynihan quote:

"The liberal left can be as rigid and destructive as any force in American life. "

Wow, wasn't he a democrat? BTW, I'm a democrat also because I feel that at its core the compassion that drives many in the party is more the Christlikeness that I'd like to see more of. At least I've been a democrat my whole voting life...I am considering becoming an independent.

'and be clear in your meaning if you expect a new term to become commonly used'?

What is that all about? 'Crypto-muslim'?

I'm not looking for common usage nor do I seek a copyright. However, if you must understand the concept look up 'crypto-jew' and you'll get close to what I'm alluding to (excepting the masons didn't get persecuted nearly as much).

thanks for clarifying
it's a confusing situation.. I love exchanging opinions to figure out just how we can work together to fix it
maybe we should all consider becoming Libertarians?

http://www.lp.org/platform

sorry if I was overzealous in my reply, I'm a history buff and I like to think there's a practical application in our modern world as well

I respect the Libertarian positions.

I hope that I am not perceived as judgmental. I do not judge our forefathers or masons or anyone for that matter. I believe our forefathers, be they Mason or Christian or Jew or Deist or atheist, were good men that desired to create a country where the goal was for Good and peace and freedom and prosperity. Some of them came here to escape persecution and wanted a system that minimized the risk of such occurring here.

Anyone, be they Mason or Jew or Christian (or Muslim or Buddhist or Hindu or Sikh or Scientist or whatever) that believes in God (or goal) as Good without blemish, who believes in a God (or goal) in which no evil is found and for whom evil is something to be done away with, I believe that person may indeed believe the same as I do. For me God is Creator and Sustainer and I know Him as YHWH and see his most perfect manifestation as Jesus The Christ. Anyone that believes that God is Creator and Sustainer ONLY (ie, without evil), I believe they may indeed believe as I do.

There are fine shades of distinction there and I am not sufficient to the task of fully articulating them. I do not believe religion should be the tool of the state or vice versa and believe that the most dangerous governmental system is a theocracy wherein law and sin become equated and legal transgression has a whole different meaning. It is a state empowered to punish on a holy (sic) different (and scary) level. Christian European countries (in the past), nazi germany, some muslim countries; all are examples of this pattern. I believe the government of the USA was set up to avoid those pitfalls. I believe that communist countries allowed themselves to act as de facto theocracies with their economic systems being the god they worshiped.

I am concerned that the polar opposites in the USA are tearing our country apart. The 'conspiracy theorist' in me goes so far as wondering if that was the goal (of some hidden elite?) for this point in time, to unravel the great experiment when some different (and synthesized) state is desired. I think the USA has been a great system that needs to keep going as it was, with the poles prevented from going to their extremes and made instead to push for compromise (which is where anyone who has been in a marriage/meaningful relationship knows true peace lies). The extremes may collapse in on themselves if left unchecked and 'compromise' will then only be won through much destruction, with a victor emerging that may be unrelated to and unwanted by the parties that entered into such a fight.

Good discussion of what America means, thanks. The American idea can be distilled down to this: Individual human rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, i.e.: property created through individual labor (Declaration) are of Divine origin, and those human rights are higher than law and government (Constitution) whose whole purpose is to secure our individual human rights.

When the Constitution is perverted in writing (3/5 rule) or when it is perverted through the "living Constitution" (arbitrary law), our individual sacred human rights (Declaration) must prevail.

"Law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." Thomas Jefferson

“The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first.” Thomas Jefferson

“This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right to overthrow it.” Abraham Lincoln

“We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution.” Abraham Lincoln

If another muslim attack exactly as what happened on 9/11 happen again,Obama
would blame the Airline Companies for being "too greedy" for not paying their own
security,and praise the terrorists as "victims of an unjust world".

This guy is really pissing me off and I'm not even an American...

So John, torture is the American ideal?
Weren't you a defender of the constitution? How do you reconcile the fifth amendment (nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; remember) with Guantanomo? Where is the due process of law there?

Those guys we waterboarded were and are TERRORISTS! They are foreign nationals captured on foreign battlefields. They are not covered by our Constitution or the Geneva Convention. They have no rights! Legally, we could do ANYTHING we wanted to to them, just as THEY do to those THEY capture. You, and they, should be grateful we are as humane and as comapssionate as we are, because our enemies AREN'T, which you seem not to have noticed.

How do you know they were terrorists?
The great U.S. Constitution doesn't discern between foreign nationals or warriors or whatnot in the fifth amendment, read it, it starts out:" No person..."
The U.S. Constitution grants numerous rights to every person, citizen or not.

They were and are foreign nationals arrested on the battlefield in foreign
nations. The admitted they were terrorists. The bragged about being
terrorists! They are proud to be terrorists!
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So what SirWilhelm, the U.S. constitution still offers them due process. Foreign nationals, battlefield, own admittence, blah blah blah. Can't you read? Any person it says. So why do defend this attack on the Constitution, this attack on the American Ideal?

It's obvious to me that the 5th Amendment applies to US citizens, to claim
that "no person" means anyone or everyone else is really stretching things.
Are you an attorney? I'd check with the Supreme Court if I were you. On
the other hand, why do you want to extend our Constitutional rights, which
are meant to protect us, as citizens, from things like terrorism? To foreign
nationals in general? There are some treaty agreements and some conventions
under inter-national law that protect us, but our Constitution does not
apply on foreign soil, so I ask again, why apply it to foreigners?
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How is torturing someone, protecting you from terrorism?

This is an area I'm sure we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't consider
waterboarding as torture. Otherwise, I don't approve of torture, which I
see as something that causes physical damage. I assume you believe fear and
psychological pain are torture, if so, just serving in the military is a
form of torture, as I can attest to after 4 years in the navy. Even if
waterboarding is torture, I believe there are circumstances where torture is
justified, as in this case, where many lives were saved by averting a 911 style
attack in LA. I hope you are aware that Obama has reserved the right to
waterboard if he sees fit? He makes Slick Willy look rough.
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_http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html_
(http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_citi.html) This confirms what I know about US citizenship.
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What has citizenship to do with the Fifth Amendment, are you trying to put some kind of spin on the Constitution, traitor? Read it here as it was written down by the foundign fathers and don't try and sneak around it: http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_...

In a message dated 6/4/2009 1:23:24 P.M. Pacific Daylight Time,
writes:

http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/bill_...



Traitor? I don't recall calling you names, and I won't stoop to your level,
but I'm well aware of the Bill of Rights having lived under it all my
life, and I know that it amended the Constitution, which gave rights to all
those living within the borders, and their descendents, citizenship, at the
time of it's adoption. Since then, to be a citizen, you either have to be
born here, or naturalized under the provisions of the 14th Amendment. If you
want to extend citizenship to foreign nationals, especially terrorists,
you'll have to amend the Constitution. Good luck.

So why do defend U.S. citizens like José Padilla being locked away in Guantanamo without due process?

Bush tried to designate him as an enemy combatant and was over ruled and
tried and CONVICTED in a civilian court.
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The U.S. Constitution was written by Americans for Americans, and that includes the Bill of Rights (with the Fifth Amendment) which can only be understood in the context of its opening statement of intent:

"We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." United States Constitution

Our Constitution does not say "We the people of the entire world, including enemies of the United States..."

Laurens, I have no doubt you are an intelligent person; but I question your ability to reason, and I question your morality because you would undermine our ability to wage just war in self-defense, and you undermine the American Constitution; things that traitors would do.

Mr.Laurens,were Daniel Pearl's rights and due process of law RESPECTED by
the muslims who BEHEADED him?

Kenneth Bigley's head ALSO was severed from his body by the muslims.Did his
rights were respected by his demonic muslim tormentors?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6190477/


British tourist Edwin Dyer's head was also severed by the muslim savagery:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-stories/2009/0...

Sir,our enemy is RUTHLESS.He laughs when the words "Geneva Conventions" are
mentioned,for it's just an INFIDEL document,a worthless piece of paper.
The ONLY law a muslim can recognize and obey is the KU'RAN,that for your dismay,
is exactly the opposite of everything you believe,the antithesis of the Geneva Conventions.

This is the truth,Sir.Islam is pure terrorism disguised as a "religion".

Jewhawk, so what? Somebodies actions are immoral, does that mean that yours should to?
What part of the Constitution do you not understand. The U.S. is build on ideals, against things like torture and unlawful imprisonment. Do you not want the U.S. to hold up those ideals, put in the very constitution of the country by the founding fathers? Do you really want to stoop to the level of anyone out there?
When will you hold the U.S. Constitution high? When all the rest of the world does too?

I'm a Brazilian citizen and our Constitution also condemn any kind of torture,
because it was written by a BUNCH of LEFTISTS.

I highly praise your solid support for your Constitution,but I do hope you know
by now that it will be also your ACHILLES HEEL;Remember the MAGINOT LINE?
Yep.The French HOPED for the best and as result of this,the Wehrmacht's horses
and troops paraded through Paris on broad daylight.The Ardennes was left OPEN
on the North...

Our democracies,open societies and human rights's records are our Ardennes.

Democracy and the Rule of Law are pillars of our Western Civilization,something
that the muslim horde is fully aware and they'll abuse it and undermine it until
the end.

Why do you so much want to have the same standards as the terrorists?
Why don't you appreciate the rule of law and the standards given. It is the American Ideal and altough it has been attacked by powergrabbers and would be emperors, it is right that President Obama wants to restore the American creed and the ruel of law, what sets the U.S. apart from torturers and terrorists around the world.

Mr.Laurens: "Why do you so much want to have the same standards as the terrorists?"

Because I want to SURVIVE.

Following your noble and righteous standards,I WON'T.

So if when you have the same morals as the terrorists, how are you different?

No I don't. I believe in Honor, Courage and Faith. The muz scum have absolutely no idea what those things are....neither do liberals. Torture, summery execution? No problem. The guys at GITMO have no idea how it should be done correctly. Something that I would be more than happy to help them with...I'll even bring my own "tools" (just cactus spines and a Bic). After the subject has been wrung out of all useful information.....down to the beach for a bacon strip in the mouth and a bullet in the brain. High tide and sharks will take care of the rest.

I'm so sorry, of course, after reading your reply I know now what Honor and Courage really mean: down to the beach for a bacon strip in the mouth and a bullet in the brain. High tide and sharks will take care of the rest.

Try a bit of thinking. Emotional bunny hugger type thinking is stupid and futile when dealing with the kind of perverts that wind up at GITMO as prisoners. They laugh at such thinking and view it as weak....which it is. A chunk of bacon in their mouth and a .45 slug right after is terrifying to them and has real meaning. The bacon makes them "unclean" and death in an un-clean state forbids them the fruits of their labors...no "heaven" with 72 virgins for them. Terrorism in reverse. An even better scenario would be to promise them a clean death after they peacefully give up all the information that we want.....then, just the .45 slug, without the bacon. If the US government had the guts for it, that's how it should be done.

I agree.It's the simple things that often work best.May I suggest a pigs trotter in the mouth instead of the bacon strip?
Come to think of it why doesn't the Coalition Of The Willing just organise a blitzkrieg of pork-powder crop dusters to cover the Mohommedan lands-nice and thick like a volcanic ash?.Just thinking out loud.

Screw that! Just a couple nukes and tell 'em the next couple nukes rub out each and every muz holy site in the entire world. That MAY make them think things over....oh yeah, they'll scream and shout and threaten....yippie shit! I assure you, they won't dare do a thing, knowing that we really mean it.....course with the current crop of liberal pussies in power now, nothing at all will happen.

Ofcourse.You make an important point though.The "liberal pussies" are infact a greater danger to us than all of mos men and all of mos horses.
It is the constant placation of these self-loathers that let the muslim usurpers in our midst out of their box in the first place.They must be defeated first or it seems hopeless.I do despair.

Roger that. My only suggestion is to practice your marksmanship and your combat skills....then hope for the best.

you are asick twisted creature.off to supermax with you and your kind

boru.....go suck a bone......a pork chop bone, or whatever else you prefer.

Tonto, you strike me as being totally ruthless...

And Bro, I like the way you think!

Good question...how do we,Western civilization,could preserve
our civil rights,rule of law,due process and human rights while
facing an invisible enemy who doesn't have targets such
airfields,factories,tanks,warships,artillery and combat aircraft in
which we could simplydestroy and win the war?

Operating disguised as teachers,engineers,pilots,bus drivers,cops
students or customers waiting in line of a restaurant,our enemies
are also wearing bomb-belts,waiting the right moment to kill as
many of our civillians as possible.Hamas did exactly that before
Israel built the separation wall.More than 900 israelis lost their
lives by the hands of Hamas,Islamic Jihad,Al-Aqsa Brigades (FATAH)...

Then,let's say that a detonator failed.The would-be suicide bomber
is caught ALIVE by the Israeli Police.He KNOWS where the explosives
and other devices are hidden.
How the Israeli Police should obtain those VITAL informations in order
to prevent DOZENS of another Israelis from being butchered?

"Please,Sir...could you tell us where your organization is keeping
the explosives?By the way,would you like some milk to add to your
green tea?"

"Sir,I beg you to inform us all where your organization is gonna strike
again.Please.Here are your cookies.Do you like your coffee black or decaf??"

Laurens,I'd rather use torture in order to stay ALIVE than being a politically correct ASSHOLE doomed to die as a lamb.Appeasement
and naiveté KILLS.
Which one would you trust to defend your family?

Defending sacred life and liberty through just war is not the same as destroying life and liberty through war of aggression; so, although we use violence in war, our standard is opposite to that of the Islamist.

“War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.” George Orwell

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” George Orwell


The highest creed of the United States is human rights as stated in our Declaration of Independence, not law its self; our Constitution was created to secure sacred human rights. The rule of law is not good enough; it must be just law which secures human rights, not unjust law which destroys human rights. The Islamists (also read Fascists and Marxists) have the rule of law, but it is arbitrary law which destroys sacred human rights; the law of the jungle.

"Law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." Thomas Jefferson

very true...

Jewhawk - Why would an ignorant liberal care about the brutal murders of these men? This is evident in Laurens' response - "so what?". He is far too busy bitching and moaning for the rights of scummy terrorists to worry about the innocent.

Exactly Christine...when he said "SO WHAT" I remembered that grisly picture
in which an airliner smacked right into the World Trade Center.
That was the prevailing attitude in America prior 9/11..."SO WHAT?" and "WHO CARES?"
resulted in what I call one of the most significant turning points in History,greater than
Pearl Harbor itself,because America was being targeted by an INVISIBLE,STATELESS ENEMY
who were living inside America or easily got Visas to get into America.

In order to prevent such things in the future does mean that the American Constitution
should ADAPT to fit this new reality,otherwise America will be DEFEATED in the long term.

Well-- stoopid--- since the prisoners in Guantanomo are NOT American citizens-- then OUR constitution DOES NOT apply to them.......

Well -- stoopid--; have you read the Consitution? It says person, not citizen! Are you trying to interpret the Constitution or will you live by it AS IT WAS WRITTEN!

What gives you the right to interpret the Constitution? Are you a Supreme Court Justice? Are you an attorney? Can you cite a court opinion that supports your interpretation? The court, and Obama, recently decided some of the Gitmo detainees had to be tried by the military commisions, how does that affect your interpretation? It was also pointed out recently that our immigration laws prohibit the entry of the Gitmo detainess into our country, how does your interpretation fit with that? Even if your interpretation is correct, it was clarified by the 14th Amendment, care to read it? "1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

And I don't respect anyone that stoops to name calling, especially in a discussion like this, it's stoopid.

The American Constitution was written by Americans for Americans, not for citizens of other nations; and not for our enemies. "We the People" refers to we the American people; the opening of our Constitution makes this perfectly clear:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

Lauren,

Torture is illegal in America. It always has been. That's why the Bush administration went great lengths in seeking the legal opinion of what constitutes torture according to the rule of law.

Obama said in his speech today, "I have outlawed torture and closed Guantanamo". Well that's a LIE. The US has NEVER allowed torture and still doesn't. It's ILLEGAL. Now...that being said, we can have the debate about waterboarding and whether or not it constitutes torture. The legal limits were reached (some saying we crossed into committing torture, which I totally disagree with) and that's as far as they should've gone. Of course we didn't see true BRUTAL torture. That's because we sought the legal opinion of what is considered torture. If we REALLY were a country that tortures, trust me you'd see a lot worse.

Oh, and regarding the Constitution, I don't know what liberal indoctrinated school you came from, but please read into Constitutional law. Foreign enemy combatants have NO rights under the US Constitution. Obama and the Dem controlled Congress are trying to change that now, but don't talk like it's true when it is completely NOT TRUE.

Btw, I'm a Conservative-Libertarian and I love the Constitution AS IT WAS WRITTEN, not as a living breathing document like the Dems call it where it can change, mold and be shaped into whatever some Euro-liberal wants to make it into. IT's offensive when I hear Euro-socialists come into this country and try to make America into Europe. America was born as an alternative to the collective mindset of Europe and our founders understood that which is why this country was founded upon individual liberty, the rule of law and religious tolerance.

I urge you to reconsider everything you have ever known politically and start reading and listening to something other than leftist liberal point of view all the time. You will discover something about yourself and about this great country that you've never known before. America is the greatest country on Earth and we have displayed our willingness to sacrifice money and blood in order to defend our way of life along with defending our allies and coming to the defense of oppressed people throughout history including on many occasions, Muslims.

John, you put qoutes in this repsonse around things PRESIDENT Obama did not say. Shamefull and stupid as you put up the original quote "I have unequivocally prohibited the use of torture by the United States, and I have ordered the prison at Guantanamo Bay closed by early next year." vs Obama said in his speech today, "I have outlawed torture and closed Guantanamo".
And then you go on attacking a forged quote, how translucent can you be?

Oh and I don't go around changing the words to mean something else, but when the founding fathers wrote something simple as no person, what do you think they meant, no person or no citizen? Think about it. Did they mean exactly as they wrote it or did they mean something else? And if they meant something else, why didn't they use the word citizen. They knew the word, they use it in the Constitution, in other places. So before you go around accusing others, re-read THE WORDS and don't reinterpret them but READ THE WORDS!

Maybe you then you also want to re-read your original comment: "So destroying the Taliban was a bad idea? Killing all those terrorists was the wrong thing to do? Is this a f***ing joke?"
Where did you hear President Obama say that or was it in your head alone?

it wasn't translucent. it was paraphrased and entirely accurate. Wake up....

Wrong again bHo! Speak for yourself. Our actions may have been against YOUR ideals, but, I didn't hear too many dissenters at the time, including your own. And now, because you're POTUS, you're trying to impose your ideals on all of us.

Your "concrete actions to change course" are going to sink us. You're all wrong and your prohibitions and definition of torture and your closing of Gitmo without a plan demonstrate how wrong you are.

Torture is as old as war itself.They co-exist quite happily.The Geneva Convention was created to minimise innocent casualties.Gitmo should not exist.All its inmates should be dead. No uniform,no dog tags,no commanding officer.They were all entitled to be shot.

the Geneva Convention was created to stop inhumane treatment and torture full stop.

The french resistance had no dog tags, uniforms or commanding officers, neither did the jews uprising in Poland. Your argument suggests their slaughter was justified.

Your comparison isn't fair,gaz.Whereas the Jews were fighting in order to
STAY ALIVE,for they were being SLAUGHTERED just for being Jews and
the Maquis were fighting to get rid from the murderous Nazi occupation,
the Muslim TERRORISTS are fighting to promote TERROR.They are not
defending their lands,nor fighting for their very lives.

The Geneva Conventions were written BEFORE the Islamic Revolution
who created the SUICIDE-BOMBINGS by sheer Koranic inspiration.The
West didn't anticipate such development,thus its human rights legislation
CAN'T be applied to Muslim Terrorism.

You rest my case.THEY were slaughtered.
It has nothing to do with justification;it is just the way things ARE.

For altogether too long has the world been ignoring the very readibly verifiable fact that "War is the natural state of man". War is what we do. Bunny huggers and libtard pacifists notwithstanding, we are killers......mankind is. No doubt. 100% true and verifiable. The muz are going to find out how true that is and how nasty Americans can become right after the next major attack on American soil. Obama is a certifiable pussy who will do nothing.....that doesn't mean he will last too long afterwards though. An attack here is coming....and the distruction of the muz world will follow.....and I do mean "wiped out".....it's only a matter of where to start and if it will be possible to stop.

The sad fact is that the muslims are single-minded and cold blooded in their goals. Deny that, Laurens.
Their tactics include hiding behind innocent women and CHILDREN, and sending the mentally deficient out wearing C4 vests. Vests packed with nails and ball-bearings, etc. Nails etc., contaminated with rat poison. All to kill the innocent and unsuspecting. And will attempt to continue this until all are subservient and subjugated against their will to muslim beliefs.
Get your head out of your rear, Laurens. The only way to ensure breaking them of such behavior and to live in peace without having to live in fear and looking over your shoulder is to utilize tactics MORE brutal and ruthless and on a level and with far more intensity and speed than they ever dreamed of. And keep at it until the job is totally complete. Any questions as to where I stand Laurens?

Laurens,

"WE THE PEOPLE of the united states,...."

vs.

"WE THE GITMO DETAINIES of the united states,..."

I'm going to go with the original,

But seriously,
There is a theory vs. practicle application here.

In theory the first atomic bomb test should have been humanities epitaph via chain reaction, so much for theory.

Applying our constitution to the world is abit arrogant and impracticle

I seriously doubt, after the american revolution, the draft process of the constitution was concerned with anything other creating the structure of a government that our people could control.

Trying to twist our Constitution into some world bill of rights for every suicidal nut that wants to take as many americans with them as possible. Seems to be at odds with promoting the domestic tranquility.

or, I could be wrong. :P

I just read through the comments posted under this heading, and fascinating reading they make. Good stuff!

Ideality is a crock of shit; nothing more than a notion in the minds of those who can afford the luxury of thinking that way. Reality is the stuff of every moment that was, is and will be.

Torture is an emotive word eagerly embraced by the politically liberal to further their own cause. In the minds of the gullible, pouring water over someone's face is on a par with crushing finger joints using a pliers simply because it may be listed under the general heading "Torture".

Torture will not stop terrorism? I agree, provided "torture" amounts to wetting someone's face. Torture is not the ideal of any country, but it as old as time, so its continued existence might be due to its efficacy. Vital information cannot be extracted by torture? Of course it can. Is it sensible to refrain from torture on the basis of vague ideals if doing so results in the death and maiming of innocents? What kind of precious conscience can answer this in the affirmative? Let others die so that I may sleep at night!

Not being American, my knowledge of that country's Constitution is woeful, but to quibble about whether the originators of that document meant ANY person or a citizen of that country is to play word games. (Of course they were referring to American citizens and not some guy far up the Zambesi.) Jefferson et al strove to produce something that best served the interests of Americans, but their magnum opus had to be of finite length. leading to necessary amendments and various interpretations. The true patriot will always interpret its wisdom in the light of what is best for America, but those who take the precious benefits bestowed upon them by that remarkable country for granted, failing to appreciate the rare riches they have inherited, are willing to endanger their country in order to placate their confused consciences and nebulous definitions of ideality.

Thank You Beejj
In reference to your knowledge of the US Constitution, you provide an insight lacking in the overall American discourse:

The true patriot will always interpret its wisdom in the light of what is best for America, but
Those who take the precious benefits bestowed upon them by that remarkable country for
Granted, failing to appreciate the rare riches they have inherited, are willing to endanger
Their Country

I was so intrigued by a document that one could albeit idealistically refer to as a living document that I now find myself a law student. Our Constitution does allow for peace, and understanding, and gives us rights arguably unknown for the majority of the history of mankind.

Peace, commerce and honest friendship with all nations; entangling alliances with none.
-- Thomas Jefferson

If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, no
controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government of men over men, the
great difficulty lies in this: You must first enable the government to control the governed, a
and in the next place oblige it to control itself
-- James Madison

Where is it written in the Constitution, in what section or clause is it contained, that you
may take children from their parents and parents from their children, and compel them to
fight the battle in any war in which the folly or the wickedness of government may engage
it?
– Daniel Webster

Excellent Beej,
Sound common sense(not so common unfortunately) as always.
BTW Buy "Black Mass" by John Gray; it's amazing.

Defending American life and liberty, i.e.: just war is an expression of our values, not a violation of our values; and requires no justification or explanation.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5435311...

Imprisoning and waterboarding terrorists is an essential part of our self-defense; a necessary aspect of waging just war. Execution of terrorists is also justified now just as it was in World War II for Nazi spies and non-uniformed soldiers. Terrorists have no rights; they have a death sentence by definition as they are murderers at war with our nation which wages just war in defense of sacred life and liberty.

By the way, waterboarding is not torture; this is torture:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=ye...

Ugh.....What an ugly bunch of nonsense this all is. Can't I just hide in a cave until Obama is gone?

I, for one, am sick and tired of Obama apoligizing for our great country. As for torture, let's first talk about the torture regimes of Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, the Japanese during WWII, the radical islamists that behead people for the enjoyment of it, the mutilation of American soldiers who are then dragged through the streets and hung from bridges in celebration. How many prisoners taken by Americans have died through the use of torture. Do I care about waterboarding three terrorist who have vowed to kill all Americans.....hell no I don't care. If America is going to catch up on what torture really is in foreign countries, we have a hell of a long way to go. Our society's current torture is enduring the nonsense being placed on us by President Obama.

NO GOD. NO PEACE.
KNOW GOD. KNOW PEACE.

Catchy little buzz phrase, that. Begin your enlightenment by listening to Bob Dylan's early masterpiece "With God On Our Side."

Ha ha ha!didn't know you were a Dylan fan Beej;a fantatic repost!

HSB, this is not the place to do so, but I could write about Dylan's genius till the cows come home. Yes: genius - a word I use sparingly. His early work was breathtakingly clever. That someone of such tender years was able to produce material of such stature is the hallmark of a rare talent. This is not to say the output from his maturity is lacking in any way, of course. I mustn't go on!

NO GOD.NO EXCUSE.
KNOW GOD.KNOW EXCUSE.

That Pescatore person sounds like a real morally muddled and mentally addled individual. Yep, moral oneupmanship.....that the way to get the respect of the muslim world....
I got news for ya LORAYNE, being a pacifist while someone else is being an aggressor is not a key to survival.
Got it?

Our soldiers defend our life and liberty and confront evil; with the sword against the sword, and it is self-evident that they are not cowards. Pacifists however are cowards unless they risk or lay down their lives in defense of sacred life and liberty. Pacifists are cowards unless they directly confront the totalitarian political and military forces of evil in the world, and that includes Islamic Terrorists. Pacifists are cowards unless they get themselves over to Afghanistan, Iraq, Sudan, etc. and directly place themselves between the terrorists and their victims.

“War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.” George Orwell

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” George Orwell

Orwell was one of the most 'prophetic' of 20th century authors.

Tolkien, Herbert, Dick, et. al.

This has nothing to do with the daily business of IAC, but since you made your comment I shall respond to it.

I revere Orwell as a staunch defender of the English language, that finest of gifts to our planet and a source of unending wonder and beauty, but how prophetic was he in his writing? "Animal Farm" was written in the 40s, by which time the Soviet bullies had been strutting their stuff for 20 years or more, so this work cannot be claimed to be prophetic. The totalitarian nightmare painted in "1984" has not come to pass. Indeed, there has been a retreat of totalitarianism, if you exclude the Islamic world. It might be argued that such dehumanising of society might yet materialise, but it has not, so Orwell's vision remains just that - a warning.

Tolkien I cannot stomach, much preferring Dr Seuss. Herbert and Dick? You must recommend to me which of their works I should read.

Finally!,somebody who thinks Tolkien is over appreciated.
Prophecy is best left to the Religions;a tool they have always employed to take away our sense of being masters of our own destinies,and thereby increase our sense of reliance upon them.Verily,their power is increased for they are the only ones with the divine word that can avert impending doom.
Jihadists believe they are fulfilling prophecy.
The enormous wealth of Western literature(I include Russia)from Plato to Shakespeare to Hugo to Dostoyevski to Goethe to Kerouac is precisely what is at stake at the moment.The humanity of Bach,the genius of Mozart,the beauty of Tchaikovsky to the vision of Dylan or the melodies of McCartney.That's what we stand to have taken away.Every last bit of it!
Smashed and burned before our eyes.To me,that's what all this is about in the end.Maybe when schools start teaching our children about this wonderful legacy that is bequeathed to THEM and is THEIRS to protect and pass on, instead of brainwashing them into thinking that everything is of equal value,we might end up with citizens who care enough to fight for it.

I agree Orwell's 'prophetic' vision has not 'apparently' come true. Yes, that is a cryptic answer and I'll leave it at that.

If you've seen Minority Report, Blade Runner, A Scanner Darkly, Total Recall as well as others, you know Dick.

If you've seen Dune (the movie or the SciFi channels better rendition), you know Herbert. Dune is a frightening one in light of today's reality...it predicts a 'jihad' (the word used in the overwhelmingly islamic influenced novel) that takes over the known universe.

It is no coincidence that the greatest pacifist of all time died the most violent death.
A parable.

Yes, Jesus was the Prince of Peace; and was not a coward, but rather He was courageous. Code Pink is full of cowards; when will they lay down their lives in pacifist defense of sacred life and liberty?

Which illustrates precisely why the "Code Pink" brigade cannot even be called pacifists.Jesus,despite his aversion to violence was nonetheless a man of ACTION.Peace is only noble when it is partnered with bravery and COURAGE of conviction.Pacifism when partnered with cowardice begets the craven apologists of which you speak.

and The Christ's greatest miracle may have been that after He rose from the dead He didn't flatten Rome. Talk about restraint.

Would that be Gandhi, by any chance, Funkybarfly?

I was actually alluding to Jesus only in so much as He wasn't in it for a political outcome as such.There have been many great pacifists through history but Jesus still remains the blueprint in my opinion.I am an atheist so I have no particular barrow to push on this.My main bugbear with Jesus is that we are and never will be up to what he preached.A fairytale.

My question was tongue-in-cheek, Funkybarfly.

Just on that,do you think there might be an English leader who might sit in protest and starvation in light of the reverse colonisation taking place today?.LOL.I can just see an emaciated Gordy Brown sitting in rags on the steps of Number 10.If he thought it would improve his approval ratings perhaps?.

I really can't see the problem here: stripping prisoners naked, stress positions, depriving people of sleep for weeks on end. Making them masturbate in front of women gurards, putting women's underwear on their head, terrorising them with dogs, attaching electrodes to people, making them simulate buggery while covered in excrement, beating and humiliating. Not to mention waterboarding... the wonderful technique copied from the Japanese war criminals...

I would expect nothing less of the Americans, and I think they are a great example of the rule of law, dignity and freedom...A shining example to the muslim world - an example we can only hope they learn from and emulate

When WE start performing clitoridectomies on the most vulnerable members of our own societies that statement might carry some weight.

gaz: "Not to mention waterboarding... the wonderful technique copied from the Japanese war criminals..."

Well, I believe you are ignorant of the truth; or you intentionally conceal the truth in order to unjustly condemn the United States. Waterboarding, whether it has anything to do with the Japanese, is not torture. If you want to see what torture really is, follow this link, and read further about the Japanese.

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=ye...

"R. J. Rummel, a professor of political science at the University of Hawaii, states that between 1937 and 1945, the Japanese military murdered from nearly 3,000,000 to over 10,000,000 people, most likely 6,000,000..."

"Special Japanese military units conducted experiments on civilians and POWs in China. One of the most infamous was Unit 731 under Shirō Ishii. Victims were subjected to vivisection without anesthesia, amputations, and were used to test biological weapons, among other experiments. Anesthesia was not used..."

"To determine the treatment of frostbite, prisoners were taken outside in freezing weather and left with exposed arms, periodically drenched with water until frozen solid. The arm was later amputated; the doctor would repeat the process on the victim’s upper arm to the shoulder. After both arms were gone, the doctors moved on to the legs until only a head and torso remained. The victim was then used for plague and pathogens experiments..."

"Japanese imperial forces employed widespread use of torture on prisoners, usually in an effort to gather military intelligence quickly. Tortured prisoners were often later executed...Japanese personnel in many parts of Asia and the Pacific committed acts of cannibalism against Allied prisoners of war."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_war_crimes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_731

Waterboarding was without doubt used by the japanese during world war two.
At the end of the war The nuremburg trials found 8 japanese officers guilty of waterboarding british/american soldiers... the officers were consiquently sentenced to death and hung.

Seems a bit ironic that the America is now using a technique that it condemmed others to death for using....

"The indictment accused the defendants of promoting a scheme of conquest that "contemplated and carried out ... murdering, maiming and ill-treating prisoners of war (and) civilian internees ... forcing them to labor under inhumane conditions ... plundering public and private property, wantonly destroying cities, towns and villages beyond any justification of military necessity; (perpetrating) mass murder, rape, pillage, brigandage, torture and other barbaric cruelties upon the helpless civilian population of the over-run countries."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Mili...

Waterboarding isn't mentioned in this essay on the Tokyo War Crimes Tribunal because it was not a significant consideration when compared to the barbarity of starvation, amputation of arms and legs, enucleation of eyes, burning alive, freezing alive, vivisection (cutting apart the human body) without anesthesia, stabbing, exploding with hand-grenades, beheading. etc, etc, etc, etc. As I understand it, waterboarding does not result in physical impairment and is therefore in a different category from real torture which brutally maims or destroys the human body.

gaz, where is your proof that they were hung for specifically waterboarding and not several additional types of heinous torture?

It's a straw man argument. The fact is that waterboarding was one of MANY tactics used and the idea that they were found guilty because of only waterboarding is absurd and inaccurate.

Incisive as ever, Infidelesto. The notion of capital punishment being visited upon those who have done nothing more than waterboarding is a comical invention. By the way, were any Japanese put on trial at Nuremburg? If so, it's news to me. Another invention?

I do apologise, having just spent a few months pouring over the transcripts of the Nuremberg trials I committed a typo, I meant to write Tokyo War crimes trials... sorry about that

some officers were indeed found guilty of only waterboarding, and given 18 years hard labour.

Either they should be pardoned posthumously, or chaney and rumsfeld should get ready for some hard work

If what you say is true (you didn't give a reference link), then those Japanese officers were justly found guilty and punished. What continues to escape your mind is the fact that those Japanese soldiers were water-boarding in a war of aggression as opposed to water-boarding in a just war of self-defense. That moral distinction makes all the difference; and it is a distinction that American liberals are unable to fathom due to moral confusion; and a distinction which American Marxists reject as an immoral choice.

I have no confusion on morality. I think inhumane treatment, is inhumane treatment who ever does it,

Although I am not surprised that America has behaved like this... I don't think anyone is...

And as an example of brutality it speaks volumes about the people who for some reason seem to think they represent morality and civilised values

Killing in war is brutal, and so is water-boarding; but both are moral and just in defense of sacred life and liberty. It is the aggressor against life and liberty who is brutal, inhumane and immoral, not the defender. Your failure to differentiate between violence and water-boarding in self-defense vs. violence and water-boarding (and brutal torture) in wars of aggression is a moral failure. It is immoral not to defend sacred life and liberty, and therefore it is immoral not to wage just war; and if necessary to water-board an unjust, war-mongering enemy.

Your lack of confusion only reflects the disgusting depth of your immorality, and your failure to hate evil and support the waging just war speaks volumes about you. Your moral failure works toward the success of tyranny, totalitarianism and the defeat of human liberty.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse...A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. John Stuart Mill

“War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil.” George Orwell

“We sleep safe in our beds because rough men stand ready in the night to visit violence on those who would do us harm.” George Orwell

“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.” Edmund Burke

"Live free or die." Gen. John Stark – Hero of Bunker Hill

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen." Samuel Adams

All due respect Gaz, you're lying and have no idea what you're talking about. You have no proof and you're argument has been debunked.

The japanese officers were condemmed to death by America in the Tokyo War Crimes tribueral,

here is a link where an American soldier describes what it is like to be waterboarded by the japanese... presumably that American was a bit of a pussy... because as you say waterboarding is not torture....

wonder what the hell he is moaning about... and why the hell the japanese were hung for doing something that is in your estimation clearly not torture

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/ar...

Evan Wallach is a fool, and he lost credibility with his opening statement reflecting immoral thinking in regards to fighting war:

Evan Wallach: “As a JAG in the Nevada National Guard, I used to lecture the soldiers of the 72nd Military Police Company every year about their legal obligations when they guarded prisoners. I'd always conclude by saying, "I know you won't remember everything I told you today, but just remember what your mom told you: Do unto others as you would have others do unto you."”

No, an American soldier does not do unto the enemy soldier, or terrorist, as he would have them do unto him. Quite the opposite, the American soldier does unto the enemy as the enemy is trying to do to him, i.e.: kill the enemy before he kills you – kill or be killed. By definition our soldiers are warriors, not pacifists. The command of Jesus applies to civilians during peacetime, not soldiers during just war; a self-evident truth which should now be a moral embarrassment to you. If my father had followed Evan Wallach’s orders during the Battle of Saipan he would have been killed, and I would have never been born. I’ll tell you what would have likely happened to Evan Wallach if he gave such orders to my father’s troops during the Battle of Saipan; he would have likely been shot by American troops because they would have immediately understood that his orders would get them killed and that his orders would therefore be aiding the Japanese enemy.

Evan Wallach: “As a result of such accounts (presumably accounts of real torture resulting in amputations, enucleation of the eyes, burning alive, freezing alive, vivisection without anesthesia, and outright murder, etc. etc.), a number of Japanese prison-camp officers and guards were convicted of torture that clearly violated the laws of war.”

This statement does not mean these Japanese officers were convicted or put to death if their only offense was waterboarding. In truth, Japanese waterboarding was the least brutal of their inhuman methods; and by its self may not have resulted in conviction of war crimes, and most certainly would not have resulted in a death sentence.

Evan Wallach: “More recently, waterboarding cases have appeared in U.S. district courts. One was a civil action brought by several Filipinos seeking damages against the estate of former Philippine president Ferdinand Marcos. The plaintiffs claimed they had been subjected to torture, including water torture.”

Presumably these were innocent civilians who were water-boarded by an unjust and tyrannical government. There is no moral equivalence between our military who use water-boarding in just war while defending the life and liberty of innocent American civilians. Your reasoning is irrational and immoral; immoral because it is wrong not to defend innocent life and human liberty. It is immoral not to wage just war and kill an aggressing, murdering , totalitarian enemy in battle, and by the same intellectual and moral reasoning it is immoral not to water-board terrorists, if all else fails, in order to protect the life and liberty of innocent Americans – to protect America during just war.

Evan Wallach: “In 1983, federal prosecutors charged a Texas sheriff and three of his deputies with violating prisoners' civil rights by forcing confessions. The complaint alleged that the officers conspired to "subject prisoners to a suffocating water torture ordeal in order to coerce confessions.”

I agree that waterboarding American civilians by law enforcement is a violation of our Constitution; but terrorists and other War enemies are not covered by our Constitution which is not a suicide pact designed to ensure our military defeat during war by giving our enemies the rights of innocent American citizens.

In short, waterboarding by American soldiers during this just war in defense of American life and liberty is moral and legal, whereas waterboarding by warmongering nations or terrorist groups; or by tyrannical or unjust governments on innocent civilians is immoral and illegal. There may be physical equivalence but no moral equivalence.

My point is... and (allow me to correct myself) that during the the Tokyo war crimes Trials, that waterboarding was considered sufficiently henious a crime when done to Americans to warrant 18 years of hard labour.

When Americans do it to other people it is OK.

I find this a fairly typical American attitude, and an attitude I don't share.

Waterboarding by Americans would be both immoral and illegal if it were part of an American war of aggression or terror. War (and waterboarding) by any nation in self-defense is both moral and legal; and since our current war against Totalitarian Islam is just self-defense, the waterboarding is currently just.

here is a statement on the subject by that well known liberal John Mcain:

John McCain. On November 29, 2007, Sen. McCain, while campaigning in St. Petersburg, Florida, said, “Following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding.”

I admire John McCain's service to the United States during war, but he is wrong on waterboarding - along with many other things. He was a poor candidate for President, and while I like him in comparison to Obama; I would have prefered any number of other Republicans or Independents (I'm an Independent).

but anyway according to funkybarfly, the whole debate is meaningless, because unlike a small number of Somalis in triblal areas of Africa we don't do clitorectomies...

cutting the skin off the end of a baby's penis seems to be ok though... so we are cool :)

"small number of Somalis in tribal areas"
That is just pig ignorant.
Do some research on that subject and you will see there is an extensive list of countries in Africa alone where obscene percentages of young girls are mutilated.I take it that you include small tribes in Britain in your estimations.
As for male circumcision,the eqvivalent would mean the severing of the penis head along with the foreskin.
Good grief.

Good man, Funkybarfly. There are about 140 million women and girls in the world who have suffered this mutilation. Not all Mohammedan, only most. What does Gaz think clitoridectomy means? Just look at the word, for God's sake!

It is indeed a horrible thing, but it is not mentioned anywhere in the Koran, or the Hdiths. it is a cultural phenomenon in certain areas of Africa that should be stamped out, I think we can agree on that.

But my point was aimed at funkybarfly (look at the words for gods sake!) who said the inhumane treatment of prisoners from countries that don't practice clitorectomy, was justified because some peoples do perform it.... a red herring if ever I saw one

The whole thing is a red herring.It's a f***ing war!
Semantics are the luxury of people who don't have to make decisions on the spot,in the field,against an enemy that respects no convention or any of the basic human dignities.What's waterboarding when placed alongside beheadings?.The Geneva Convention only works when both sides play by the rules,otherwise one side is placed at a monstrous disadvantage.They fight the enemy to protect us.Let them use whatever means they deem fit,it isn't a debate they are engaged in,they can't afford to lose.Just seems to me that the same mindset that mutilates women is also likely to behead prisoners.

... or drop cluster bombs

Dear "gaz",I'd gladly drop NAPALM ,WILLY PETES,C-4,CLUSTER BOMBS and
EVERY KIND of ordnance known by men on YOU.

You SUCK!

If Britain and America depended upon you during WWII,the Nazi
flag would be waving at Washington and London.No Jews would
be alive today...

you would like to drop naplm cluster bombs and ordanances on me?

that speaks volumes about your intelligence.

As for the second world war, that was without doubt a just war, and really should have been launched a lot earlier when Hitler re took the rhineland. That way he would have been out of power pretty much immediately.

but anyway thank you for the abuse

gaz:..."that speaks volumes about your intelligence"

That's not about my inteligence,but my survival instinct.


gaz: "but anyway thank you for the abuse"

You're welcome,sir.

Your reading of Funkybarfly's message differs from my interpretation. But to come back to the point I made about your absurd view of clitoridectomy, just look at the word. What else can it mean? I wonder what you understand by appendectomy. A belly being rubbed?

The Koran can say what it likes, but which of the world's major religions has its practitioners chopping bits off women and girls? Islam. Which bits? Those that are the seat of sexual pleasure. Why is such pleasure to be forbidden to women in the eyes of Mohammedans? Did God err in creating the clitoris? Is God fallible in the eyes of Mohammedans? Did God create it so that it could be excised? If so, God surely works in mysterious ways! Which of the world's major religions forces women to dress like sacks of potatoes? Islam. What is this sexual hang-up that so besets Mohammedan men? Are their dicks THAT small? I am no Koranic scholar, but there must surely be something in that foul document that encourages such despicable behaviour, so I hope someone will enlighten me. The Koran most likely says nothing against the flying of kites, either, but the Taliban who claim to be spot on Mo's wavelength forbid it. There MUST be something in that toxic tome that enables such mind-boggling interpretation.

Don't waste your time worrying about the welfare of murderous Mohammedans in custody. So they get their faces wet and wear women's knickers on their heads. Big deal. Inhumane treatment? Any clitoridectomies, or its male equivalent? Have there been any beheadings at Guantanamo? You would prefer these vermin who threaten all you enjoy and evidently take for granted simply to asked politely to divulge information that might lead to the saving of innocent life and if they refuse to say, "Oh, OK, Mustafa. Thank you for your time"?

Muslims constantly tell us their culture and religion are inextricably linked. They say Islamaphobia is a form of racism as a result. I don't know if clitoridectomy is specifically mentioned in the Koran or the Hdiths, but treating women as second class citizens, as pieces of meat that have to be covered because they tempt and corrupt men, seems to fit with that practice. It also fits with "honor killings" of women, arranged marriages, child brides, rape and abuse of infidel women, forced marriage and conversion of infidel women to Isalm. They treat their goats and camels better than they treat their women. It is Islam that needs to be stamped out.

And by the way storm rider... I completely agree with you the japanese were monsters who deserve everything they got... please don't think I am defending the japanese... I am not

Damn right they were totalitarian monsters during World War II. My father and all of his troops were in a constant fight to the death. No way they would be taken prisoners by those bastards - they knew exactly what was waiting for them when taken prisoner. The Japanese apparently had no idea that by their inhuman brutality they fostered a fighting spirit among American soldiers, including my father, which can only be described as invincible. What will a man not do to save his own life and his foxhole buddy? What will a man not do to save the life of his own family and his neighbor?

I think he'll have his thumbs squarely planted somewhere else, versus just sitting on them ;)

OBAMA IS A PIECE OF EXCREMENT WHO MAKES "MR. HANKEY" LOOK GOOD.

So, what would O'Bungler do to stop another 9/11? Why, side with our enemies of course...
http://www.theodoresworld.net/archives/2009/06/...

He thinks they won't attack us if we're on their side. But he don't know them very well, do he?
http://sweetness-light.com/archive/muslims-blow...

lorayne-
3000 people died on 9-11-2001. Many of them were trapped under burning piles of rubble for hours before dying. Innocent people, who had never even heard of Al-Qauda or the men involved, died. they were trapped in and under the twin towers and the pentegon AS THEY WERE COLLAPSING, BECAUSE TERRORIST WERE FLYING PLANES INTO THEM. These actions were compleately unprovoked.
These men do not reason like we do. they do not stop and twidle their tumbs asking themselves "gee, i wonder what the UN or, hell, even the rest of the world would think if I went and MURDERED OVER THREE THOUSAND INNOCENT PEOPLE TODAY." if the United States of America, which you have the right and freedom to move out of whenever you find its actions of protecting your life rude, would have not responded Al-Qaeda would have attacked many more times. THE COUNTRY WHICH PROTECTS YOUR RIGHTS- FROM FOOD TO FREEDOM OF SPEACH WOULD CEASE TO EXIST.
we were over reacting?
the biggest mistake the united states made was not attacking Al-Qaeda sooner.

I felt it wrong for Obama to ever get into the presidency he is too radical muslem for America. he has a numberof times proven this to be true. wake up America before you can't . He is doing worse for America than anything that has hit its grounds in the lifetime of America. I pray that something will be done to stop his radical spending, radical speeches, and radical judgement on the American people.bobbie

LOL, he is neither, what are you smoking?

Well the reaction to 9/11 may have been a fuck up. Has anyone kept abreast of the 9/11 investigation going on or have you all sat down now and nod your heads in agreement when we're told, "There's nothing to see here,you can go home now,everything is under control" just like officer Barbrady on South Park. I've seen raw footage since released that show building7 coming down and no one can refute it is a controlled demolition. I even saw a raw footage tape that shows in perfect focus the second plane going to the tower then into it and the explosion. The plane I saw was grey looking without windows and a logo on the tip of the fuselage, not a commercial carrier.....Then there's the matter of both towers falling the exact same way when both were constructed to take a hit by a 707 and it would not fall, but both of them fall, in a freefall speed!!!!! So do yourself a favor and go to you tube and type in 9/11 conspiracy or 9/11 coincidences and see for yourself.

The bottom line for me is that Osama Bin Ladin took full credit for 9/11. Why would he do that if it was really Bush? He could have destroyed Bush just by denying he was behind 9/11. You can look at the footage anyway you want, just as people see different things when they look at the JFK assasination, RFK's assasination, UFO footage, Bigfoot videos, etc. Reality is in the eye of the beholder. For me, if Bin Ladin says he did it, that's good enough for me.

I've seen all the conspiracy documentaries and they are all bullshi*t...

here's a question for you to chew on.

The people in those planes are DEAD. No one can refute that. So what happened to them? You're now forced to make up another WILD conspiracy about it.

Did the big bad illuminati controlled bilderberg, tri-lateral commission, council on foreign relations controlled by evil Boosh and Darth Cheney order the hit?

you guys crack me up. The most basic facts don't matter I guess...

Gerald,
Better people than you have looked into this using scientific and engineering methods, not emotional responses to rumors - responses and rumors which help our enemies during war.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/mili...

I'm laughing at you because of your silly, juvenile, uninformed mind.

http://www.videosift.com/video/Penn-Teller-911-...

Oh Brother.....this guy doesn't understand our history at all. We don't want trouble, but if you bring it to us, we'll kick your a**. So leave us alone and we'll be fine.

Liz:

Correction to your post. It should read "So leave us alone, and YOU'LL be
fine." heheheh.

A lot of people misusing the quote. He says of 9/11: "...it led us to act contrary to our ideals." The way Bush and Cheny reacted was contrary to our ideas as a nation. We locked up cab drivers and went after a country that had nothign to do with 9/11. And we used tourture. That, I believe, was his point.

The real problem is what he meant by "our ideals"? I think he meant HIS ideals, which apparantly you seem to share. I remember very well that after 9/11, just about the whole country was behind Bush and whatever he did to prevent another 9/11, including invading Iraq. BHO built his gampaign and continues to justify his policies based on the perception Bush was wrong, despite the mounting evidence, such as the problems with closing Gitmo and the actions of the Iranian regime, that Bush was right. And you raise the torture issue once again. The fact is we used waterboarding 3 times immediately after 9/11 to avoid another. It worked. We haven't used it since then. If it violates our ideals, why has BHO reserved the right to use it again if HE deems it necessary? I don't know what BHOs ideals are for sure, do you? I certainly wonder about what they are after his comments about us not being a Christian nation, and we could be the largest Muslim nation, and many other questionable comments and actions of his.

Steve: " We locked up cab drivers and went after a country that had nothign to do with 9/11. And we used tourture."

I bet we locked up some cab drivers after Pearl Harbor in 1941. I have no doubt some of them needed locking up, and some needed hanging as they were enemy spies or agents.

Waterboarding is not torture because it does no permanent harm to bodily organs or function. I believe it is immoral not to use waterboarding when other methods fail to get the information we need from our totalitarian, mass-murdering Islamist enemies. This is real torture:

http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?print=ye...

American Values are stated in the Declaration of Independence: Americans value human equality under equal law (not Marxist government-enforced economic equality), and we value the sacredness of our rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness (including private property). Failure to secure our right to life, i.e.: national security and defense, is immoral; and you are therefore immoral by agitating against the natural American value of life and self-defense.

Steve: "and went after a country that had nothign to do with 9/11"

Not true; Iraq under the arch-terrorist Saddam Hussein was not only a terror-supporting nation, Iraq was in fact a terrorist nation it's self.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/archives/2001/09...

http://www.husseinandterror.com/

http://www.frontpagemag.com/Printable.aspx?ArtI...

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25546334/

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2009/05/mor...

What you and so many so-called liberals (you are no longer liberals like Thomas Jefferson, but more and more like State-worshiping Fascists or Marxists) have missed is that Iraq was part of an International anti-American Islamo-Fascist Alliance of terror groups and nations. When one member of an alliance maliciously attacks the United States we are free to wage just war in self-defense by attacking any member of the alliance or any combination of those members, and we can wage just war on our own timetable.

http://fora.tv/2007/11/30/Norman_Podhoretz

http://fora.tv/2007/11/30/Uncommon_Knowledge_No...

There is an international alliance of Islamist Totalitarian Religious States, such as Iran, Saudi Arabia and the former Taliban Afghanistan; and Islamic Totalitarian Fascist States, such as Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, Libya and Indonesia; and International Islamist terror groups such as Al-Qaeda. The Islamist terror groups and nations are linked to the Islamic Fascist nations by the shared totalitarian nature of Islamic Sharia Law, which is practiced by the former openly, and by the latter in the background. This is the International Islamo-Fascist alliance, and we are engaged in World War IV. Wherever totalitarian Islamic Sharia Law rules, whether in an Islamist state or a Fascist state, we have the international enemy identified; and we are morally justified to wage war in defense of American life and liberty.
During World War II the United States was attacked at Pearl Harbor by Imperial Japan, which was a member of the Axis Alliance. Since Nazi Germany was part of that same alliance we were free to attack Germany before Japan or Italy because the alliance as a whole was the enemy. We ended up attacking German military forces in our first major engagement of World War II in spite of the fact that Germany did not attack the United States at Pearl Harbor; and we did so by invading Morocco where the French army and navy engaged us in sustained combat - go figure - but this is the nature of warfare between alliances of nations or groups. The totalitarian laws of Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan during World War II correspond to the Totalitarian Sharia law of the Islamo-Fascist Alliance of today. Now, since Iraq was a member of the Islamo-Fascist Alliance, the United States was free to attack there after first engaging the more immediate threat of Taliban Afghanistan.
True, we are not at war with all of Islam; only the two-headed monster of mass-murdering Islamic terrorism and Totalitarian Islamic Sharia law and jurisprudence. Most ordinary Muslims are peace-loving, and it is immoral to hate all of them collectively; but it is equally immoral not to hate the murdering and totalitarian evil which so widely contaminates Islam. The situation today parallels that of Nazi Germany in the 1940’s. We were not at war with every ordinary German, but those ordinary Germans by and large supported the evil of Nazi Law, Nazi military force, and the Nazi S.S. and Gestapo. Most ordinary Germans during World War II were peace-loving, but they did not sufficiently stand up for peace or for human liberty; and the same can be said of ordinary Muslims today. It remains to be seen how ordinary Muslims will choose sides in World War IV. Will they side with their totalitarian clerics, terrorists and Sharia Law, or will they choose to defend the sacred rights of man: life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness? Will ordinary Muslims choose totalitarian religious government or will they choose government which rules by consent of the governed? Ordinary Germans made the wrong choice in the last century, what about the ordinary Muslims of today? I believe the jury is still out.

September 11, 2001 was the opening act between two alliances: the American-led Alliance of Liberty vs. the Islamo-Fascist Alliance of tyranny. This war is far from over; and it has the potential for much greater evil and destruction than World War II. It is time to beat our plowshares into swords and our pruning hooks into spears; and to loose the fateful lightning of His terrible swift sword – just war in defense of sacred human life and human liberty.

You can read more about this analysis in: "World War IV, The Long Struggle Against Islamo-Fascism" by Norman Podhoretz

http://fora.tv/2007/11/30/Norman_Podhoretz

http://fora.tv/2007/11/30/Uncommon_Knowledge_No...