Why Anti-Jihadists should support the Iranian people

by Infidelesto on June 19, 2009 · Comments

I’ve been taking some heat from a few of my fellow anti-jihaders on twitter for showing solidarity to the Iranian people and their mountainous climb for change.  Their argument is basically:

“After this is all over, they will simply return to the Death to America and Death to Israel chants” only this time it’ll be led by Mousavi instead of Ahmadinejad.

or

“by supporting Iranian democracy, we’re supporting Islamic totalitarian democracy”

There’s definitely truth to that…but…

Regardless of who is in power, the consequences of Iranian policy will not change…so why oppose the people’s right to choose?

Just because the opposition candidate isn’t much better, does that mean we SHOULDN”T support the process? I don’t think we should just sit back quietly and not say anything about supporting HUNDREDS of THOUSANDS of people who are demanding free and fair elections.  Free elections go to the core of our value system, so why not support that?

The consequences of Iranian policy, rhetoric and action will be unchanged.  I supported the desire of the Palestinians to vote Hamas into power, but that doesn’t mean there are no consequences for voting terrorists into power. There will always be consequences.

I say we deal with whoever’s in power after the fact.  Let the Iranian people choose.  Support their rights to free and fair elections, even if the candidates are both one in the same.  Remind the Iranian people what they could and should have.  Freedom.

Also, isn’t the purpose of “setting their nuke program back” to give the Iranian people time, to support the growing opposition, to take back their country from Islamic hardliners? Is it a stretch to think that Iran could one day get back to the days of the Shah? I don’t think it’s a stretch.  So that’s why I’m supporting the Iranian people.

Yea I know it all started in choosing the lesser of two Islamic totalitarians, but what I and many others who are supporting this movement, is that this could be the start of something bigger, something that happened in 1979, only this time it’s going in the other direction.

*Update*

Charles Krauthammer wrote a great piece in the Washington Post today.  I thought this goes along with our discussion about whether or not to support this Iranian uprising.

This started out about election fraud. But like all revolutions, it has far outgrown its origins.What’s at stake now is the very legitimacy of this regime — and the future of the entire Middle East.

This revolution will end either as a Tiananmen (a hot Tiananmen with massive and bloody repression or a cold Tiananmen with a finer mix of brutality and co-optation) or as a true revolution that brings down the Islamic Republic.

The latter is improbable but, for the first time in 30 years, not impossible. Imagine the repercussions. It would mark a decisive blow to Islamist radicalism, of which Iran today is not just standard-bearer and model, but financier and arms supplier. It would do to Islamism what the collapse of the Soviet Union did to communism — leave it forever spent and discredited.

In the region, it would launch a second Arab spring. The first in 2005 — the expulsion of Syria from Lebanon, the first elections in Iraq and early liberalization in the Gulf states and Egypt — was aborted by a fierce counterattack from the forces of repression and reaction, led and funded by Iran.

Now, with Hezbollah having lost elections in Lebanon and with Iraq establishing the institutions of a young democracy, the fall of the Islamist dictatorship in Iran would have an electric and contagious effect. The exception — Iraq and Lebanon — becomes the rule. Democracy becomes the wave. Syria becomes isolated; Hezbollah and Hamas, patronless. The entire trajectory of the region is reversed.

All hangs in the balance. The Khamenei regime is deciding whether to do a Tiananmen. And what side is the Obama administration taking? None. Except for the desire that this “vigorous debate” (press secretary Robert Gibbs’s disgraceful euphemism) over election “irregularities” not stand in the way of U.S.-Iranian engagement on nuclear weapons.

Even from the narrow perspective of the nuclear issue, the administration’s geopolitical calculus is absurd. There is zero chance that any such talks will denuclearize Iran. On Monday, President Ahmadinejad declared yet again that the nuclear “file is shut, forever.” The only hope for a resolution of the nuclear question is regime change, which (if the successor regime were as moderate as pre-Khomeini Iran) might either stop the program, or make it manageable and nonthreatening.

That’s our fundamental interest. And our fundamental values demand that America stand with demonstrators opposing a regime that is the antithesis of all we believe.

And where is our president? Afraid of “meddling.” Afraid to take sides between the head-breaking, women-shackling exporters of terror — and the people in the street yearning to breathe free. This from a president who fancies himself the restorer of America’s moral standing in the world.

Related posts:

  1. Setback for Iranian President
  2. Berkeley Daily: Why I don’t support the troops
  3. Bush calls Iran “single biggest threat” to Mideast peace
  4. Western human rights lobby ignoring Iranian suffering
  5. Cheney: “Iran faces serious consequences”
  6. Officials: Discovery of Weapons Cache Suggests Iranian Meddling in Afghan War
  7. Ahmadinejad’s latest anti-Israel Tirade
  8. Iranian protester: “We don’t deny the Holocaust. We do accept Israel’s rights”
  9. John Bolton Breaks Down Possible Iranian Response to Israeli Airstrike
  10. Iran: Millions of young people in search of ‘virtual sex’ says official report
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  • Parsibache
    The world should not sit in silence as the Islamic Republic of Iranian Enemies Slaughter the Iranian Youth. This generation does not support the Islamic Republic . Now is the time for Regime Change Iran for the benefit of stability in the region and less terrorism in the world in general.
  • JEWHAWK
    CHANGE?

    Change into WHAT?
    Ahhh...a POSSIBILITY,a PROMISE of "Less terrorism in the world in general" ???

    That's simply NOT ENOUGH.Drop DEAD,Mr.Parsibache.
  • JEWHAWK
    I won't support the Iranian people.It's the very SAME who chants
    "DEATH TO ISRAEL and DEATH TO AMERICA" on a regular basis;
    I won't support the "opposition" candidate,because the REAL
    OPPOSITION to the Ayatollahs is living in Los Angeles,New York,
    Paris and London.
    Mr.Mussavi is a rabid ANTI-ZIONIST,therefore there's not a chance
    in HELL that could make myself support this fiend.
    By the way,who can be SURE that the iranians that are in the streets
    wants DEMOCRACY?Says who?
  • Let me be clear...I'm not supporting Mousavi. I'm supporting the free
    election process. I think this has turned into more than just election
    fraud. I think we're seeing the beginning of a full blown revolution. The
    revolution will either be successful or turn into another Tienanmen Square
    moment of brutality.

    Free and fair elections should be "supported" wherever it happens,
    regardless of the candidates. Let the people choose their leader, and also
    let the people reap the consequences of their decision.
    Like I said, the consequences will remain if the policies, actions and
    rhetoric of the fairly elected candidate continue to be rabidly
    anti-America/anti-Israel. e.g. The people in Palestine have seen their own
    consequences by electing a terrorist organization (Hamas) into power.

    I don't lump all Iranians into the Death to America crowd. There are
    hundreds of thousands of Iranians (Over 60% under the age of 30) who are
    either non-religious, Christian, Jewish or whatever. Hundreds of thousands
    non-radical decent Iranians.

    The radical ones should be dealt with, but we shouldn't lump the entire
    Iranian population into the "Death to America" crowd.

    btw, I still support taking out their nuke facilities with overwhelming
    force possibly even tactical nukes if the military recommends it.
  • JEWHAWK
    Infidelesto said:
    ..."I don't lump all Iranians into the Death to America crowd. There are
    hundreds of thousands of Iranians (Over 60% under the age of 30) who are
    either non-religious, Christian, Jewish or whatever. Hundreds of thousands
    non-radical decent Iranians."

    Iranian students and youngsters supported Khomeini in 1978/1979 Islamic Revolution;

    Iranian students kept the American hostages during 444 days,with Mussavi's
    support;

    The ONLY source of power in Iran comes from the "supreme leader",the Ayatollah
    Khamenei,therefore ONLY the Iranian Armed Forces could change the status quo,
    not the students,from which we can indentify SOME that really craves for the full-fledged,real McCoy's Western-minded Democracy.
    Many of those students want a 'democracy" in which only MEN could vote;
    Some of them want to restore the SHAH'S MONARCHY.
    Some desires a SECULAR CIVIL DICTATORSHIP.Others a SECULAR MILITARY DICTATORSHIP.
    A few of those students were Iranian Intelligence's agents,taking pictures of the others,for further persecution.They have a lot to lose should the "Revolution" collapses.Their families
    won't accept any change in their status quo.

    "DEATH TO AMERICA"

    The Islamic Revolution MANTRA is kinda catchy.Every major rally the HUGE crowds
    chants it,along with the obvious DEATH TO ISRAEL,while both above mentioned countries's flags are usually burned.
    School kids of all ages were INDOCRINATED for the past 30 years to do that.To HATE Israel and America.Today,they became soldiers,terrorists,propagandists of Islamic supremacy.
    Old habits dies hard.
    Democracy as we all know it,CAN'T fit into the Iranian political reality.It doesn't belong to
    their culture,much less to their abominable religion.
  • hellosnackbar
    My reading of the situation is that Iranian youth(and some older Iranians)
    are fed up with the manifest failure of the Islamic republic.
    If there truly is a "revolution" in the making I believe Mousauvi would be swiftly cast aside in favour of a true democratic republic with religious moonbats marginalised,imprisoned or shot.
    I look forward to mass burning of the Hijab(or whatever the Iranian version of female tentware is called.
    I hope Iranian youth has the stomach and organisation for the bloody events to come.-
  • Infidel_Tabatha
    I agree with you that the Iranian people should of course have the right to protest and should also have the right to proper elections. At present, they don't have either.

    That said, let's be clear: even if Mousavi becomes President, not much would change. His wife was interviewed last week and she stated: 'We will speak to any country - except Israel.'

    So by all means, let the Iranian people speak. That is only correct.

    But don't expect any big changes.
  • Do you honestly think that Iraq is a democracy? Do you really believe that Obama's support wouldn't be exploited by the Khātamī to legitimize the crack down against the "foreign supported" agitators.
    This thing is only going to end one way. Like Czechoslovakia in 68' and Tienanmen square... But their current ruling class has just lost any semblance of legitimacy. The generation they are killing now will be in power in 20 years and that's when their "glorious" experiment in religious dicatorship comes to an end...
    So it is far better for our government to voice quiet support for the democratic "process" and refrain from any ballyhoo since this keeps the internecine battle firmly fixed between the Mullah's and their own people and not their traditional scapegoats: Iraq, Israel, and the US.
  • Wake Up
    Who will stop the USA's secular dictatorship. US citizens votes, or Iran's Nukes.
  • Storm_Rider
    I believe Wake Up is referring to Karl Marx's "Dictatorship of the Proletariat;" and I believe the Democratic (Neo-Communist) Party Leadership is well on its way in dividing America into Middle Class and Proletariat Class; pitting the latter against the former by robbing the tax-paying Middle Class on behalf of the tax0receiving Proletariat Class and thereby buying the latter's vote. We have now entered American Marxist Class Struggle; something Karl Marx predicted in 1848.

    “The history of all previous societies has been the history of class struggles.” Karl Marx, 1848

    “The proletariat will use its political supremacy to wrest, by degree, all capital from the bourgeoisie, to centralize all instruments of production in the hands of the state… Of course, in the beginning, this cannot be effected except by means of despotic inroads on the rights of property” Karl Marx, 1848

    “You must, therefore, confess that by "individual" you mean no other person than the bourgeois, than the middle-class owner of property. This person must, indeed, be swept out of the way, and made impossible.” Karl Marx, 1848

    http://www.anu.edu.au/polsci/marx/classics/mani...

    “I do not claim to have discovered either the existence of classes in modern society or the struggle between them....My own contribution was 1. to show that the existence of classes is merely bound up with certain historical phases in the development of production; 2. that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat..." Karl Marx, 1852

    “Now, in the United States bourgeois society is still far too immature for the class struggle to be made perceptible and comprehensible…” Karl Marx, 1852

    http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1852...
  • SirWilhelm
    What secular dictatorship are you refering to?
  • Wake Up
  • funkybarfly
    Personally I believe Islam should be outlawed and destroyed in the West full stop.Any Mohammedan not willing to comply with this directive must be deported or interned;they are an odious burden and massive waste of our time.Any violent action from these plague-rats should be met with reprisal from the air as the loss of one of our soldiers is one too many.Let them sort each other out as they deem fit and good riddance.Renewable sources of energy should be a major priority for the West,not because of the environment or the brainwashed ravings of the green lobby,but because our consumption of OIL puts us in a position where we must deal with these rancid backwaters.We should sympathise with them as we would sympathise with a cancer:Eradication by any and all means at our disposal.Enough is enough.I care not one bit for their fucking democracy.
  • SirWilhelm
    There is no seperating politcial from religious Islam. The basis of Islam is Allah's superiority, that's a politcal stand, be it by a "god" or a man. Since no one can prove or disprove Allah exists, then perhaps we must accept it as a religion, since no one can prove Jehovah, Jesus, or whatever name you want to call the Chrstian or Jewish God by, really exist, they all have to be taken on faith. However, Islam embraces terrorism , intimidation, and forced conversion in it's basic tenants, in the Quran, as has often been pointed out and quoted. I feel this overides any religious claims based on faith and labels Islam as not only a politcal organization, but a terrorist organization masquerading as a religion, no matter what claims it makes of faith. It's goal is to gain power over all humanity to impose it's will, the fact that it winds up dictating all aspects of an individuals life, including how they worship, is actually secondary, though no less important. Witness the struggle with the demonstrators in Iran today, we realize that although the political structure of the govt may change, the fact that the people are Muslims will not, leaving the potential for further problems, such as what might happen with their nuclear program. The debate will never end, but a majorityof our citizens could vote to have Islam declared a terroist organization, and appropriate legal action taken.
  • Storm_Rider
    I get a creepy feeling every time I consider the fact that even President Bush was unable, and presumably fearful, to identify Political Islam as the enemy of our Declaration and Constitution. By the same token, Republicans in general have been unable, and presumably fearful, to identify the Marxism within the Democratic Party as the enemy of our Declaration and Constitution.

    Both Political Islam and Political Marxism are the enemies of the American Revolution; because both contradict our Declaration and Constitution; and the two appear to be forming an alliance.
  • SirWilhelm
    An alliance that has put it's new leader in office in the form of BHO who I believe is a closet Muslim Marxist. As a closet Muslim, or at least a Muslim sympathizer, he has embraced the politcal and socialist aspects of Marxism as being compatible with Islam, while rejecting the atheistic aspects of Marxism. I dread the day he feels secure enough in his power to come out of the closet.
  • The political version of Islam should be stamped out, but I could care less
    what someone wants to "believe" in even if it's a murdering, raping
    pedophile like mohammed. Let's not take away religious rights of the wacky
    minded.
    Political Islam is, however, a different issue. It's NOT a religion. IT
    should be investigated and stamped out in all forms. Any political
    discourse regarding Islam should not be allowed in the political process,
    and if they want to take it to the Supreme Court and let them decide of
    political Islam has a place in the American political system, the SCOTUS is
    almost guaranteed to declare it unconstitutional as soon as it's looked at
    with a magnify glass.

    oh, and all immigration from Muslim totalitarian states should end
    immediately except for certain extreme cases of political asylum.
  • Brian of London
    By claiming that anyone can separate the political "version" of Islam from some other mystical, spiritual, safe and fluffy bunny "version" you are claiming to know something about Islam that everyone of its highest levels of jurisprudence has denied again and again.

    I myself have heard Wafa Sultan thump a lectern and say there is no Islam but Islam. There is no Islamism, Islamists, radical Jihadist (pray tell me what is non-radical Jihad?) or any of the other frequent delusions we in the west have dreamt up. Even the Prime Minister of Turkey knows there is no such thing as an Islamist.

    So if you can't separate Political from Spiritual Islam, how can you accept the practice of either?

    The poor people of Iran (and every other country infected with the Islam virus) will just have to work out that Muhammad was nobody special, his message is one of base debauchery and villainy and if they can do all that, maybe they can somehow drag themselves back out of the stone age. Democracy (especially the voting part) is that last and least important part of their problems.
  • funkybarfly
    Exactly.Moderate Islam,Political Islam,Radical Islam:The three heads of the same Cerberean dog.
  • Storm_Rider
    There were Germans in the 1930's and 40's who didn't agree with Nazi Politics, Gestapo, SS and Military; but they were irrelevant and at the end of the day followed along. I see the ordinary Muslim caught in the same predicament. There are no doubt many Muslims who only want to pray and worship; Muslims who don't want Totalitarian Political Islam or Mass-murdering Islamic Jihad; but I have to agree that at the end of the day they will likely also be irrelevant and will eventually follow along with the blood-thirsty Totalitarian Sharia/Jihad Muslims.

    It may be true that the Islamic Reformation is not going to happen; that 9/11 its self represented the reforming trend of Islam - same as the old Islam which conquered Christian Middle East, Christian North Africa, Christian Byzantium, Christian Spain and part of the Christian Balkans.
  • Storm_Rider
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances." First Amendment, Bill of Rights, U.S. Constitution

    http://www.leftjustified.com/leftjust/lib/sc/ht...

    Yes, purely religious Islam is OK, but Political Islam is not OK because it is destructive of non-Muslim's right to the free exercise of non-Muslim religion; and destructive of non-Muslims's right to freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom to peaceably assemble and freedom to petition government.

    "the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed." Second Amendment, Bill of Rights, U.S. Constitution

    Political Islam is not OK because it is destructive of non-Muslim's right to bear arms in self-defense; and without the right to defend life there is no right to life its self.

    "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..." Declaration of Independence

    http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/i...

    Political Islam is not OK because non-Muslims are not equal to Muslims before their tyrannical Islamic Law - Sharia Law; non-Muslims must pay a special tax to the Islamic Government and live as second-class citizens in a myriad of other ways.

    "that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness..."

    Political Islam is not OK because through its Sharia Law our sacred individual human rights (Declaration) are legally destroyed.

    President Bush made a very serious error when he declared "War on Terror." We are not at war with terror; we are at war with Political and Military Islam, i.e.: we are at war with Totalitarian Islamic Sharia Law and Mass-Murdering Islamic Jihad. If we can't correctly identify our enemies, we will eventually lose this struggle against Totalitarian Islam. We are also in a domestic political struggle with American Marxists, and I fear they are forming up with the Islamists; both are enemies of our Declaration (human rights) and Constitution (Republican form of Government).
  • funkybarfly
    I don't disagree with that,however,the right to believe is an individual right not a religious green-light to impose ideologies.I have stated before that moderates never stand up to extremists in Islam through a genuine and well founded fear.People may believe in Santa,the Tooth Fairy or little green men from Mars and no one is killed or has a freedom taken away because of it.I just don't believe Islam is any match for Political Islam and it seems that you CAN'T have one without the other so Islam is a political beast in essence.Mohammedans really care not for politics OR religion:It is just Islam above and beyond everything else,including REASON.We dance with the Devil to court it at all.
  • booh
    Nuke 'em back into the stone age. Turn the Muzzie middle east into a giant glass parking lot.
  • i can't say i disagree with small tactical nukes on Iran's nuke facilities, but nuking all of the Middle East? uh, no.
  • I support democracy. I also realize the Iranians will not become our best friends no matter who is chosen. When I see people beaten and shot because they desire a democracy against an islamic theocracy I support that. The Iranian people have the right to choose their leaders and choose freedom. That being texted, no matter who they vote into power, if that leader desires the destruction of Israel or America our policy should be the same. Screw with us, and we'll send you back one thousand years into the past.
  • exactly what I'm saying, Jeff. They're most likely going to put another Jew-hating, America-hating despot in power and when they do, there'll be consequences then just like there are now. At least the people were allowed to choose.
  • I am proud of all Americans who stand up for the struggle of the Iranian people. While they will not get true democracy, it is for the people to decide, not one "supreme leader" nutjob.
  • Your comments are very much appreciated...Freedom, regardlees of the outcome, should be championed...Although I have no reason to believe that any other leader would be any less radical than Amahdenijad, the citizens deserve the right to CHOOSE freely...You either believe in freedom or you don't...
  • Storm_Rider
    Yes, individuals are free to choose; but there is such a thing as legally choosing tyranny - as the German people did in the 1930's. While we are free to choose, and thereby legalize tyranny; we have no right to do so. No individual or government has a right to choose destruction of an individual's human rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness (property); because those human rights are the sacred gifts of God.

    http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/i...

    "Law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual." Thomas Jefferson

    Sacred human rights (Declaration) trump human choice, human government and human law when those choices, governments and laws become destructive of unalienable human rights. While some things are relative, some are not. Our sacred human rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness are unalienable, i.e.: unchangeable, i.e.: non-relative.
  • You're misunderstanding me...I'm NOT advocating tyrannical rule of any kind...But by your comment, one could surmise that you don't believe the Iranian elections should have been held at all by the mere fact that all of the rulers would be tyrants...Nor should there be any elections in Russia, because all of the choices would be communist...As I said, and I stand by my comment, all elections should be open and free, REGARDLESS of the outcome...If we must deal with that country later because of nuclear proliferation, or terrorist activity, or a bad choice on the part of the citizens, then so be it...That free choice shouldn't be taken away from them simply because none of the candidates believe in unalienable rights...By the way, the German people did NOT elect Hitler...He was appointed...These are the original election results...

    Hindenburg 49.6 percent
    Hitler 30.1 percent
    Thaelmann 13.2 percent
    Duesterberg 6.8 percent

    So, as you can see, nearly 70% of the voters voted AGAINST Hitler...Tyranny did finally win out as certain people crumbled under the pressure and Hitler was ultimately appointed...

    As I will continually state, freedom of choice (Democracy) should be championed no matter the outcome...This is the only fair and equitable way to choose...
  • Storm_Rider
    Chris,
    The more I think about the Declaration of Independence, and read other writings of Thomas Jefferson; I have come to realize that the American Revolution is (not just was) primarily one centered on Sacred Individual Human Rights (Declaration), and secondarily on Human Government designed to secure those rights (Constitution). Both Thomas Jefferson (author of the Declaration) and James Madison (author of the Constitution) agreed on this.

    “On the distinctive principles of the Government ... of the U. States, the best guides are to be found in... The Declaration of Independence, as the fundamental Act of Union of these States.” James Madison

    “I have sworn upon the altar of God (Source of our Sacred, Individual Human Rights - Declaration), eternal hostility against every form of tyranny (Government destructive of our Individual, Unalienable Human Rights) over the mind of man.” Thomas Jefferson
  • Agree with with you wholeheartedly, at least in you last two posts...In your original reply I thought you were advocating taking away the citizens rights to choose, simply because there may not be any adequate choices...Thomas Jefferson is my favorite of the Founding Fathers...Although they're probably all in some museum, I would love to get my hands on something that had his original handwriting...I have read in his published personal journals many times...And although many would argue that our Constitution is probably the most important document in our history, the Declaration of Independence is my favorite document ...It is so brilliantly and compassionately written...So, ideologically, I also believe we agree...Do you have a blog?...
  • Storm_Rider
    Chris,
    I don't think you and I are really in disagreement. I just wanted to point out a truth that our Founding Fathers fought and died for; that sacred human rights are the reason for law, voting and government; and the latter (Government) can never justly trump the former (Sacred Human Rights). In this sense our Declaration of Independence (Individual Human Rights as the sole justification for law and government) trumps the Constitution its self (Law and Government).

    "Law (Government) is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the right of an individual (Declaration)." Thomas Jefferson

    "That whenever any Form of Government (even a perverted Constitution) becomes destructive of these ends (Our Sacred Declarational individual rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness - property ), it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.” Thomas Jefferson

    “This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government (a perverted Constitution for example), they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or exercise their revolutionary right (Declaration) to overthrow it.” Abraham Lincoln
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