Detroit Muslims jump to the defense of radical Imam shot dead by FBI

" police “tactics” in their use of force against Abdullah. "
What was is? Over use of power? Disproportionate response ?
What is next ? Human Rights Investigation ?
Take Mr Goldstone ! He is an expert!....

He refused to surrender and chose to shoot it out with the police. He killed a police dog before they killed him. Thanks goodess it wasn't an officer. It doesn't stop the Muslims from trying to spin the incident and the perpertrator in their favor, showing once again there are no moderate Muslims, they all stick together in a pinch. This guy was advocating the over throw of the American govt, that makes him a traitor, anyone that sides with him should be considered a traitor too, and be treated accordingly.

RIGHT ON SIR W!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Infidelesto seems to be nearly the only person to frequent his blog that believe there is anything such as a moderate Muslim. Anyone with half a brain knows they do exist. Unless you have any contact, or have even tried to get to know what some of you call your enemy, you'll always be simply the other side of the coin from a fanatical jihadi. Moderate Muslims know there are muslims that twist writings of profits to justify violence, just as there are in other faiths. Those that put all in the same basket are simpletons and idiots.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/104269/Musl...

The Muslim community turned on extremists in their midst yesterday, telling them they were 'sick and tired' of their behaviour.

“We’ve been the victims twice over – from the stupidity of Muslim extremists who metaphorically pour petrol and fan the flames of the right-wing extremists. We hope they get the ­message that the law-abiding ­community is sick and tired of them.”

To use the word "stupidity" to account for the deeds of Islamic terrorists is a trick that will not work. True, these people are victims of thorough indoctrination and stubbornly conform to the teaching that has been laboriously forced into them, but to claim that stupidity drives the bus is to do truth a disservice. Again, to suggest that those who take issue with Islamic terrorists are "right-wing extremists" is a black lie. Even so-called moderate Muslims have occasionally voiced displeasure at the deeds of their more rabid brethren, so these are right-wing extremists, too?

Ubin your remarks do not withstand analysis. The Koran, the Hadiths, Sharia and the hideous life of Mohammad have all been analyzed ad nauseam on this site and the consistent themes of violence, domination and slavery that compose Islam are apparent to all. The problem is Islam. There is no moderate Islam . There may be Muslim moderates, but Islam itself is irredeemably violent, mind destroying and hateful.I do believe that a really thoughtful psychiatrist and researcher could establish the thesis that studying Islam, with a view to putting it into practice, causes mental derangement. Unless you renounce, retract and throw out most of the Koran, all of Sharia, all the Hadiths and repudiate the life of insane Mohammad as an example to all Muslims of how to behave, you have an ideology that will continue to breed pathological hatred and interminable violence. Are you willing to do this? If you are let's be clear about what we are engaged in. We attempt to sanitize Islam in order to help moderate Muslims save face. I cannot support such an endeavor because I think that it is doomed to failure. Islam is the problem. This ideology belongs in the dustbin.

"There is no moderate Islam".This is the critical point.
Moderate Muslims are apostates whether they know it or not.
Islam has no redeeming qualities and therefore even a reformative overhaul would be pointless.
Islam is a political animal that amounts to nothing more than theocratic Nazism.
The Islamic mindset regarding women alone,means this pox-religion has no place in the modern world.
"This ideology belongs in the dustbin",to be sure.Personally I would retire this archaic mind-slavery to a receptacle that had a "flush" option.

Incisive, Bronwyn.

Excellent observations Bronwy.

FYI read "The Complete Infidels Guide to the Koran" by Robt Spencer

Do you look at the slavery and genocide and polygamy and violence of the Old Testament as well?

Ram, is this the correct attitude?

"I Must point something bad in other people's holy book because I have no defense against my own"

I'm not defending something written 1400 years ago. Clearly humanity has changed since then. But why should all Muslims be tarred by something written in a book that most of us can't read?
If you are going to brush everyone from a Muslim country for what is in the Quran, you have to do the same for Christians and Jews or else its just hypocrisy.
I'm not trying to attack any one's holy book, they all are incredibly dates and anachronistic (except the Sikh Holy Book which really is the only Holy Book that is all rainbows and hugs and kiss, go figure)

Because most muslims believe that what is written in there is immutable, that it is the word of god, and anyone who goes against it is "evil" and should be punished severely!

Seriously visit a Muslim country. Its the only way you're going to realize that the fanatics you see on Fox News aren't representative of the vast majority of Muslims you'll meet on the street.
I can't convince you of this over the internet but I strongly encourage you to visit Indonesia, Tunisia, Turkey or Senegal to see real Muslims and realize that most of us are pretty chill.
People in the past demonized the Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Blacks and Jews. Weren't the people who claimed that those races were against civilization proven wrong?
Did America end when blacks and white were allowed to marry? Did the Japanese turn out to be the two faced demons of World War II propaganda? Why are Muslims a people a part?
Isn't it funny that for most of the past 150 years Muslims haven't done anything to the West, despite repeated invasions of Muslim countries by Russia, UK, Netherlands, France and US. During the Cold War Muslims countries and societies were allies of the West against Communism and people didn't talk about Islam being a threat to humanity.
But all of a sudden after the end of Communism, when the West lost Communists and Russians as an enemy to hate we become this overwhelming force of evil that had to be stopped.
Stopped from what I don't know. Germany is 4% Muslim, Britain is 2.5 Muslim, Netherland are 5 percent Muslim, France is maybe, maybe 6% Muslim. How are these tiny numbers going to overtake Western society? After a generation won't their levels of reproduction fall to standard European levels? Throughout the Muslim world we are seeing Birth rates plummet just like in the West (the Economist this week has an article on this). In Iran women are having 1.9 children.
And don't you see the Muslims who move to Europe adapting secular mores? Aren't secular values superior? If you had faith in them you'd realize they are attractive to everybody.

hey genius, Kal (the co-author of this blog) lives in a Muslim country. He
has as much knowledge of living in a Muslim country as any

I've visited Algeria Morroco and Egypt.(Morocco is without doubt the most gentle;but the general level of education is definitely third world);and they react with horror and anger when one suggests that the dead hand of Islam is responsible for their backwardness.
And yet curiously they work hard to leave their Islamic Utopia for the West's attractions.
The next irony is that having arrived in the west they start whining for privileges(unearned)and RESPECT from the natives whilst living in comical APARTHEID style ghettoes;which over time
become no go areas for the natives(particularly women).
Then when some youngster who embraces western values starts practicing them;some irate
dickhead (usually the father)beatsup or locks up or murders his errant daughter(boys have it much easier).for the honour of his insane family.
Meanwhile there is an ever increasing tendency for bearded lunatics to walze around in funny hats and victorian nightshirts proclaiming their difference.(rather like neo nazis in jackboots and
blackshirts.
Islamic identity has become an irritant and when twats like Choudary organise demonstrations
villifying British troops;policemen have to be assigned to protect them.
A large number(Choudary included)shamelessly draw unemployment benefit(in England that's known as taking the piss).
Why don't they do the right thing and assimilate Ram?surely dumping the death cult would improve social cohesion!but on they go in rasping fashion thus recruiting new members to idiot fascist organisations like the BNP.
Muslims in the UK are a pain in the arse and their unpopularity is seriously on the rise.
They now make up 20% of the prison population and growing.
Sooner or later there'll be a watershed and it will be most unpleasant.
Many people through the web now equate Islam to a supremacist,totalitarian ,fascist ideology.
The evidence suggests that it is just that!
Watch some Pat Condell videos Ram!
We would be grateful for your views.

I love when muslims claim they did nothing to the west in the last 100 or so years. Armenia genocide, Greek genocide, and even joining Hitlers rank.

Your invitation is the same thing as if I invited you to the sewers, you will find it is kind of cozy in there, doesn't smell, there is no disease and it is a lovely place to visit! Do you need to go to the sewers to know it is a shitty place to be?

Yep, I would be blocked in the instant I step on their immigration officials... I would be carrying illegal drugs for Kuwait, I would be carrying my scientific and atheistic books and lots of comics with some other magazine with boobs and vaginas exposed... Saudi Arabia would say no. In egypt I would be stoned, in Jordan I would be stoned...


If muslims weren't so hell bent on trying to implement sharia I would believe in you. So far, what I have seen is that muslims in western countries are as crazy for sharia as any muslim! Uk even did a research and a high percentage of muslims wanted sharia, if I'm not wrong more than half! I believe it is published in this blog...so go look for it.

"People in the past demonized the Germans, Russians, Chinese, Japanese, Blacks and Jews"

In the present, muslims demonize Jews EVERY single day.

not necesarilly, first take a look at urself b4 judging others practices u moron, doent mean u cant defend urself.

Well if you use that type of English to make your point you'll be naturally labeled a moron.
Off topic I'm just watching a lovely chinese ballet dancer in theNutcracker Suite.
I'm just remembering Christine's crack about a Muslimah doing a grands jete in a burkha
the problem with Muslims is they cannot share high art as it's haram.
Aren't they just the most miserable buggers on earth

"Well if you use that type of English to make your point you'll be naturally labeled a moron."

How "English" are you?

racist moron you are...

How English are you??
What does that mean.
If it means was I born raised and educated in England then the answer is yes.
If it means that I support free speech and freedom of expression the answer is yes.
If it means that I should support the ineptitude of labour politicians and their faux acceptance
of sociological dogma then the answer is no.
If it means that I should accept the ingress of a barbarian culture that seeks to subsume mine
then the answer is no.
If it means that I have no right to laugh and make fun of bearde men in long white shirts, sawn off trousers ,and crocheted tea cosies on their heads the answer is no.
If it means that I enjoy having a drink and chat with Sunil(Indian),Suresh (Indian),Tan (chinese).
Sipho(South Afican);then the answer is yes.
All of these pals of mine agree that Muslims whether black, white ,yellow or polka dot agree that Islam is a corrosive and dangerous ideology.
Another(a Sikh)is even more vociferously anti-Islam than I am.
In fact if my daughter wanted to marry anyone (provided they were not Muslim).
I would be happy to endorse her wish.
Once again 786 your racism canard is like much of what you write FALSE and unsubstatiated.
The only thing that intrigues me about you is that you stated that you became a Muslim after the 911
outrage.
You've never explained that apparent non sequitur.

islam786

Do you call someone racist every time you don't have any argument? Wow...

For a second I was tempted to reply to your question. Then I realized that I had never mentioned Christianity or Judaism in my remarks. Rather than answer the issues I raised, you preferred to switch the focus of discussion. This sort of thing is transparent; you do it often. You need to actually engage on the issues or be silent. The issue on the table is the useless concept of moderate Islam because those who purport to be moderate, like yourself, are closet enthusiasts or cowardly appeasers who are no earthly good to those who fight for liberty. The silence of moderates is deafening, unless these 'moderates" are whining that they need protection from a mythical backlash against yet another act of Muslim violence. Do you have a firm grasp of the issue now?

Queen(Boudiccaea)Bronwyn with her chariot of sharpened blades(in keypad form)scythes down the pitiful Ram.
I doubt if we'll hear from him again(joining the ranks of Shukri,Xcon,Belladonna,et al).
The field of battle is littered with the corpses of the believers.
Trouble is; that if there are no more; this site will not be so much fun.
At least Ram (a pie in the sky idealist) made some sort of attempt at opposing the infidel tormentors.
786 is of course is hardly worth reading(converting to Islam is an indication of his profound insanity).
Well let's see if there are any other doughty defenders of the death cult to savage.

You have unwittingly hit the nail on the head, Ubin. In order to believe that there are moderate Muslims one needs to possess, as you put it, half a brain .......

The violent half.

I'm a Punjabi. One Punjabi has won the Nobel Prize for physics, and one Welshman, Brian Josephson. As cultures we were both colonized the English, and we both ride on their coat tails. Are laws and school system are derived from the English. Do you have greater claim to their inventions because you lie closer and have a similar complexion?

Sorry to be obtuse, Ram, but I have no idea what point you are trying to make. What's all this about "greater claims to to their inventions"? My complexion? What has it to do with anything? Come, come, dear boy: you are beginning to sound a bit racist.

You really are very funny.
Western society of the Medieval and early modern period were convinced of the fundamental evil of Jews. We now recognize that is silly and hateful. In the early 20th century much of the West was obsessed with the Yellow Peril posed by the "races" and their oriental despotism. People just like you write book after book about how the Yellow mind can never adjust to modernity because it stifles individuality. But here we are a hundred years later and South Korea and Japan are successful democracies and China has the world's largest economy and is currently its only engine of growth (until hopefully soon the US economy gets back on track). People were wrong about the threat "Orientals" posed to Western society, they were wring about the threat of the Jews, and the threat of miscegenation with Africans and aboriginals.
Don't you think that Muslims are just the scape goat de jure of Western bigotry? During World War II some people thought German culture and society was fundamentally war-like and that Germany should be erased from the maps as its people were a threat to humanity.
Today on this website Christians and Jews (by culture if not faith)come together to spread vitriol on Muslims in a way that 50 years ago Christians did on Jews. I have faith in progress, and one day Jews, Muslims, Christians and Buddhists and Atheists will come together on a website to bash martians. All we need is an "other" to unite us.
Don't you agree the past bigotries I've mentioned turned out to be untrue and unfounded? What makes you think your current bigotry against Muslims will be any different.

You cannot get away with outrageous claims such as "In the early 20th Century much of the West was obsessed with the Yellow Peril posed by their "races" and their oriental despotism." Don't become an inventor of lies in order to try to score points. There might be gullible half-wits out there stupid enough to believe your assertion without seeking corroborative evidence.

During WWII the recognised enemy was not German culture, but Nazism - an entirely different thing - so Nazism had to eradicated, not German culture.

You refer to my bigotry against Muslims. Wrong. What I feel and write about Islam is a reaction against the myriad deeds of its followers and proclamations of its leaders, much in the way Churchill recognised the looming threat of Nazism in the 1930s. Islam seeks to devour. I am damned if I will sit idly and be devoured. I will be more willing to accept your dream of the day that Jews, Muslims, etc will come together harmoniously when Islam no longer threatens death to its apostates and ceases referring to non-Muslims as infidels.

There are moderate Muslims of that there is no doubt;but moderation amongst the ummah seems to be of a very tenuous nature.
The key question is CAN a self declared moderate be trusted?
The evidence would seem to suggest a resounding NO!
The only Muslims whom I would ever trust are those brave souls(like Dr Jasser)who thrust their head well above the parapet and condemn unequivocally the barbarian tactics of their coreligionists.

Moderate muslims far outnumber the "extremist".. they are only a handfull of misguided uneducated morons bent on creating wars but sadly the coverage they get on the media has created a streotype image in the minds of the commen people...
Most moderates are quite peacefull people who are not "extreme" enough to take action againt the "extremists" !!!! It bring tears to my eyes when moderates recieve angry hatefull messages from uneducated morons who assume all muslims are terrorists..

the muslim association in my area has recently started to hold regular open meetings to deal with the handfull of extremists. The police, council and local MP's have been attending and things are progressing at a frightning pace which is good news. Please message me if you are based in the north west of UK and would like to attend our open social cohesion meetings.... Free food and drinks available!!!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1189577...

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/104269/Musl...

Well Muslim 786 when I witness on television, you, delivering personally, a smack in the mouth to
Anjem Choudary; I'll give you some credence.
But I'm not holding my breath!

That's cosy and reassuring, Islam786. One question: do you favour Sharia law?

Are there moderate Muslims? What do we mean by moderate? If we mean those Muslims who would be secretly relieved to have all of the extremist bullies disappear off the face of the earth, there may be some, only some. The question is what good are they? The answer - they are irrelevant. Majority opinion or support has never been required to enable the despotic few to take over, especially when the population is trained to behave like sheep. Muslims are followers. They are bred to be followers. They kill independent thought. Millions of them can be bullied and manipulated into exactly the horror that we foresee, if they are not stopped. The moderates are silent,supine, fearful and often, secretly gleeful at the pain and suffering that is inflicted by their extremist brothers. I conclude this because of the opinion polls of Muslims in Europe which indicate repeatedly that a majority of them would like to see Sharia law in the European country they occupy. I also remember the Muslim celebrations world wide when the Trade Towers were brought down. Moderates did not run into the streets decrying the ghoulish display. They did what moderates do. Nothing.

Muslims feel their inferiority and even the most moderate of them is deeply infected with rabid hatred of Jews. This life controlling hatred of the Jews makes Muslim moderates worthless to us, because they will naturally gravitate toward those who feed their insane prejudice. Their mindset requires a people to victimize and blame so that they do not have to face the stunning shortcomings of the Muslim culture. Other moderates may simply want to get on with life and ignore the whole issue. I sympathize, but these moderates are also irrelevant to opposing the Islamic fascisti.They will adapt to whatever system is imposed on them They are not allies.

The search for Muslim moderates is a waste of time. We need to court and protect those Muslims who show the courage and determination to renounce Islam and forge a new way. These are our only allies.

Ah Bronwyn yet more damning clarity from the angel of common sense.
Strange that Islam 786 can't find it within himself to accept the irrefutable logic of your missive; and accept that by becoming a Muslim he joined the legion of the damned.
It is perhaps a barometer of the aquired brain damage, that the believers experience.
As they say; truth can be much stranger than fiction;when fiction is believed to be truth.

HSB, my man, I have at last managed to acquire Dawkins's "The Greatest Show On Earth". So far, I have read only a couple of chapters (I will read this treasure VERY slowly in order to savour every word), but I am already beside myself with awe over his scholarship and delight at his mastery of English. The very first paragraph knocked my socks off! His second paragraph raised my hackles sufficiently to make me want to declare war on science-ignorant shit-heads. The most astonishing fact I have discovered so far is that over 40% of Americans do not believe in the truth of Evolution. What the hell is happening in that country?????? What are they eating???

Greetings Beej,
I just knew that Dawkins' latest would thrill you.
He was recently a guest on one of those moron shows on Fox television(Moron O'Reilly was the host).
He addressed Dawkins as MR Dawkins although I'm sure that he was fully aware that RD is a double Professor emeritus.
Recently my son informed me that 70% of Americans did NOT know that the sun is a star!!!
Another tele show(on youtube)had a group of pranksters successfully recruiting people to ban
dihydrogen oxide!
It makes one wonder about the depth of ineptitude of those who plan education;and how any individual can live a life of culpable ignorance?
Islam is of course the prime example of this mental hamstringing.

HSB, dear boy, this might interest you.

A week ago I wrote an email to a Conservative MP who shall remain nameless. (I taught with him in Scotland way back in the late 60s. He moved on to Harrow and then into politics, so he must be one of the longest serving MPs in the country - his constituency is solidly Tory.) We have corresponded with each other once every blue moon, but it's all harmless boring stuff. Well, last week I was pondering the excremental - Islam - and was moved to write down my observations and feelings and revulsion to said MP. It was a lengthy missive, but one of my most significant shafts of criticism of present-day Britain was my stated resolve never to live in a country that allows Sharia law, and so I will never return there. As you can imagine, there was much more in my email, including damnation of politicians of all shades who sit back and do nothing as the country is devoured from within by the followers of the prophet of evil. I wrote about Churchill, hoping to make my old colleague feel shame, and about Enoch Powell, pointing out the prophetic nature of his epic speech. I concluded by writing that I did not expect a reply. Guess what ....... I have received no reply!

I'd like to see what you wrote him!

you recieved no reply because an educated person will read all that you write as bullshit - sorry to hurt you...

No It's not, I read what Beejj wrote to him and it's all true. Sorry to
hurt you...

its beacuse your a moron infidelesto....

at least I can spell

Typical muslim tactic. You lose an argument because islam is a crock, and you resort to name calling. And even more hilarious, you do so using improper grammar. Pedophile Muhammad would be proud.

"It's all true"? How can an opinion in a letter be true? Are some letters true-er than others?
If you want to convince us, share the letter with us and let us judge.

Ram, I sent the letter privately to Infidelesto. I will not place it on this site because it identifies the MP and me, and such information is not for the public domain. Surely you can understand that?

Oh dear, Dickrash 786, your razor-sharp intellect defeats me yet again! What am I to do? Will I ever gain the upper hand in open debate with such a mental giant as you? Am I destined always to gnash my teeth down to the gums as I lick my wounds after your trenchant demolition of everything I write? What erudition you bring to this site! How we all hang on to your every utterance, belittled yet strangely elevated by your unfailing demonstrations of ice-cold logic and pithy rejoinders.

Um .... do you favour Sharia law?

Dear racist Beejj,

Does your family know that you are a facist racist twat?

I do follow the Shariah - it is not law it is guidance for a way of life.
What you and some other morons assume is that actions "some" muslims take is justified by Sharia.

There are diffrent levels os Shariah
Obligatory, or clearly required (Wajib or Fard)
Recommended, but not obligatory (Mandub)
Prohibited (Haram)
Disliked and discouraged, but not prohibited (Makruh)
Permissible, due to lack of injunction or opinion (Mubah)

The two main sources for Shariah are the Quran and Sunnah.
Any Shariah ruling that replaces justice wit injustice, mercy with its opposite, common good with mischief, or wisdom with nonsense, is a ruling that does not beelong to the Shariah, even if it is claimed to be so according to some interpretations.

Many major crimes are punishable by death in Shariah and is practised in many muslim countries and also in non-muslim countries.

For your information i have copy and pasted some bits in the text above. Seems like my copy and paste actions are pissing some people of ? If anyone would like to know what the real me would say please come and visit me in the real world..!! Beejj i would love to meet you in person maybe one day i will.... :)

Wow, fascinating islam786 . Once again you are proving that there is no moderates in Islam.

Anyway, how can islam be a race? I would love to know how the DNA mutates as soon as you convert and how it mutates back when you become an apostate! I also want to know the bone mutations for the islamic race; We clearly don't have this information... Care to enlighten us in that area?


If you support sharia, you support gay stoning and inferior rights to women, then you are a a terrorist and a someone who should be watched by the police.

Great to hear from you Necro;
what's happening in your life?
I think you will find that molecular biology is a subject way beyond Islam786 's feeble mind.
He's far to busy bumping his bonce on the concrete
and offering his relaxed rectum to Allah.
It is the Islamic way.

Been busy lately; Kind of trying to sell my soul to get a visa to the US hahaha... the problem is I already did sell it before for a public toilet.


I'm also a bit tired of islam; especially on how much concession they get around the world and this http://theopinionator.typepad.com/my_weblog/200...

The asshole used the same defense I used and this loathsome bag of islamic uselessness rapist won!

Oh yeah because the racist wankers on this site are all molecular biologists and astrophysicists I'm sure.
The racist right has always been a beacon of enlightenment to the world. Apartheid South Africa, Nazi Germany, the American South, all the world is so grateful for the wonderful lessons that those racist regimes taught us.
Your grandchildren will probably marry a Muslim, and mine will probably marry a Chinese. We all need to stop hating each other or attending our grandchildrens' weddings will be really awkward.

I'm starting to think you're more leftist American hating liberal than you
are Islamist, but hey the Islamist-Marxist Alliance is stronger than ever
cause they have the same goals. Destroy America, destroy freedom,
prosperity and liberty.

I think the right has done everything it can to destroy America already, right?

Destroy the economy by letting Wall Street run rampant. check
Invade several countries without planning an exit strategy and overstretching the military. check
Undermine the education and health system. check

Do you think Bush left America's society and economy more or less secure?
Bill Clinton balanced the budget, while George Bush gave tax cuts to the wealthy while launching two expensive wars and overseeing the largest expanse in prescription drug coverage in history (mostly to benefit pharma companies).

Do you agree with that? Do you agree with his weak wristed invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan? His incompetence means that America has spent more time in Afghanistan than it did fighting World War II. Democrats won World War I and World War II. If I remember correctly it was a Republican (Nixon) that gave up Vietnam.

well, any American hating leftist marxist Islamist like yourself would of course hate the right. We stand for FREEDOM, duh...

Invaded several countries? Hmm, Afghanistan was a NATO mission, and Iraq? Well after 17 UN resolutions someone had the political courage to stand up for world peace and remove a genocidal Dictator which turned out to be a SUCCESS in that country. The Surge WORKED...

Clinton had Bin Laden on a platter and gave him away...

Where did you come from? Daily Kos? HuffPo? TPM? Crooks&Liars? You're true roots are showing. Just tell us!

You wanna blame Bush for everything like a deranged Bush hater? How bout this. Barack Obama spent MORE money in 1 month than Bush did during the ENTIRE Iraq war. How's that?

Take it a step further. Obama has QUADRUPLED the deficit and spent more money in his first 9 months than every president before him COMBINED! And that's not even with Gov't Health Care in the picture. You hypocrites want to talk about spending, look at Obama,Pelosi, Reid and tell me what they've done. Nothing but bankrupted the country.

That was a powerful rebuttal. I am going to remember your information. I have recommended your site to my son who is a college student and a conservative at a supposedly conservative school. He took a seminar on Islam and knew less than half of the information commonly discussed on this site. I encourage you that you are doing an important work and I am grateful to you.

Thank you very much Bron, your comments here are a great help to our cause and community.

You are getting angry Ram throwing out unsubstantiated accusations of racism.
I don't know any racists here(Tonto is an American Indian,and the lovely Odyssia is Chinese.
What unites us is countering the abomination that is Islam.
I couldn't give a toss whatever part of the ethnic or cultural spectrum a fellow contributor is provided
what they say is logical moral common sense according to the golden rule.
This of course excludes anyone who believes that an illiterate murdering desert itinerant (visited
by Angel Gabriel with 700 hundred wings)took messages from Allah(an invisible friend)to guide the rest of humanity to his described(X rated paradise).
If you believe such puerile nonsense then your unfounded faith will lead to the unrelenting ridicule you'll get here.
Has it never occurred to you that you are a victim of baseless mind conditioning imbued by your parents and relatives with this arrant tosh.
Do you believe in a world caliphate administered by bearded fools who tell you that theirs is the path of righteousness?
Can't you see that Islam cripples free expression and thought?
Islam is worthless totalitarian fascism insofar as its adherents are forced into submitting to the apparent will of an imaginary sky monster.
Indeed we are the antithesis of fascist in that we believe in free speech.
IAC is a sort of sports arena in which faith based fools are made the subject of contempt;especially when they blow themselves up for Allah.
Note the difference between contempt and hate(Muslims are by and large to silly to evoke hate)
Muslims are regarded by most here as feeble minded robots;and I hope that in the future more
educationally advanced people will regard them as an abberation of civilised behaviour.

I love it that you blame scientific and intellectuals for the problems in islam.

I'm a forensic Biologist, I know what I'm talking about in my field, and I'm also an amateur astronomer with deep passion for physics too. So, if I see something completely stupid coming from someone, then I must correct them.

but hey, if you don't like scientists who laughs at idiotic beliefs(99% of us does... the 1% are actually religious people who use science to try and validate their beliefs)
Even the person who discovered the Double Helix in the DNA is an atheist!

Looks like old Islam786 has finally lost his rag Beej.
That old canard of racism has finally got past his fingers and put into type!
No doubt "judgement day" and the wrath of space monster Allah will follow.
When you next offer your anus in submission to your space monster Islam786 then remember that
there are millions of sceptics like Beej and myself laughing at you!
My suggestion if you know any Arabic is IMSHI!
Come on; let's have a death threat?
You know you're desperate to give one!
As for a proposed meeting you have to ask yourself why?
Village idiots can be found everywhere!

hsb - you want a death threat? does it turn you on? what strange fetish you do have....

So islam786, did you think about my questions? We really need that data so islam can be classified as a race!

Islam 786 I think you should look up what fetish actually means!
Malpropisms make you look even dafter.

Procure a dictionary of the English language and look up the word "racist".

I take it, then, that you do not favour Sharia Law (I'll call it that since Muslims do). There might be some hope for you after all, although I shan't hold my breath.

You would like to meet me? Alas, I cannot truthfully reciprocate that sentiment because so many of the Muslims I have known remind me of sheep being herded by dogs. They make me think, too, of those sad people who paint by numbers, daring never to go outside the defined spaces only to produce hideous results they truly believe are works of art.

EEEEEasy there Islammy, no name calling. Here in florida 'twat" is a crude slang for the ladies vagina. Please keep the lovely v's out of it. Thought you were all into sheep anyway.

islam786,

That's funny coming from you! You are the king of writing mind-numbing bullshit. You have already been exposed for stealing the words of others. When you are not doing that, your only defense is to cut and past pages of garbage you find on the ridiculous sites you visit. While I did not get to read what Beejj wrote, I am certain it was, as usual, beautifully written and quite to the point. Given your most obvious lack of intelligence, it would be entirely wasted on you.

Are you going to answer his question? Do you support Sharia law?

What is the world coming to Beej?
Yet another example of the pusilanimous perversions of political correctness corrupting the mind of
a conservative of thirty years standing .!
What is it that these miserable excuses for men that have the effrontery to represent the British public?
Fortunately after the daily T exposed their venality with the expenses scandal;there will be some new faces(probably more than a hundred).
Let us hope that in the near future we will not be wringing our hands with the same old lament of same old, same old!
Where are the Norman Tebbits and others who will force these craven tossers to"get on yer bike!"?
As for Islam 786 if he's the future?;then I weep for my children!
But somehow I believe that a new generation of educated people, like my son; will sweep these halfwits aside;because the alternative is too horrible to contemplate!
Every day in the obituary column of the daily T I read about the sacrifices made by our forebears for our once great country;only to have it stolen by the politically correct filth that have no pride or knowlege of their own history.
I am becoming ever increasingly an angry old man.
You recieved(sic) no reply because an "educated" person will read all that you write as bullshit!
Is he a barrister I wonder?

Beejj, you touched on the problem when you said "believe in the truth" of Evolution. Evolution is a theory, if you do believe in the "scientific method" it should always be open to debate and testing, not set in stone, like an article of faith you "believe" in. There are many holes in the evidence supporting the theory, especially in the fossil record. Intelligent Design is the only competing theory, that I know of, and there are great problems with it's evidence too, especially evidence for the "Designer". Evolutionists are having a hard time showing how life got started, especially on a primitive Earth, but if life started elsewhere, it stills begs the question as to how it got started anywhere in the Universe. I think Evolutionists, and other scientists and scholars, are overlooking a lot of evidence in ancient texts they dismiss as myths. Is that being "scientific" when they don't look at them with an open mind? I'm not trying to argue for or against either theory, I'm trying to keep an open mind, and open other's minds without criticizing their personal beliefs, not an easy thing to do. I hope you enjoy reading Dawkin's book, but try to keep an open mind while you do, and not be blinded by his writing skills.

Sir W I urge you to read "The Greatest Show on Earth" and knowing you to be an intelligent man of reason I think that you will be won over by the evidence for evolution.
Do not confuse evolution with abiogenisis(the hypothesis of life's origins)
A theory in science means highly probable truth; based on available evidence(there's a veritable mountain for evolution).
The book is very well written and massively enjoyable as well as being wonderfully informative.
Scientific theory is NOT faith!
Gravity is yet another" theory"(the warpage of the space/time continuum ).which is easily demonstrable and testable;but cannot be absolutely provable yet.
Read it old pal!I know you'll enjoy it.

Since you brought it up, HSB, are you aware of the results of the LIGO
experiment and it's implications for gravity theory? No, scientific theory is
not faith, but many so called "scientific" people have the kind of faith in
their theories that border on the religious. The kind of faith that leads
them to attack the messenger when anyone finds evidence that contradicts
them. Your response to my question will be fascinating, I'm sure. I'll try to
find the time to read Dawkin's book, although I'm well behind on the books
I already have, too many irons in the fire lately.


In a message dated 11/3/2009 1:54:33 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

hellosnackbar wrote, in response to SirWilhelm:

Sir W I urge you to read "The Greatest Show on Earth" and knowing you to
be an intelligent man of reason I think that you will be won over by the
evidence for evolution.
Do not confuse evolution with abiogenisis(the hypothesis of life's origins)
A theory in science means highly probable truth; based on available
evidence(there's a veritable mountain for evolution).
The book is very well written and massively enjoyable as well as being
wonderfully informative.
Scientific theory is NOT faith!
Gravity is yet another" theory"(the warpage of the space/time continuum
).which is easily demonstrable and testable;but cannot be absolutely provable
yet.
Read it old pal!I know you'll enjoy it.

Link to comment: http://disq.us/2xze6

-----
Options: Respond in the body to post a reply comment.


To turn off notifications, go to: http://disqus.com/account/notifications/

It's always a pleasure to receive word from you, Sir W. The most unfortunate aspect of the so-called Theory of Evolution is is the use of the word "theory". People are too eager to interpret it to indicate a weakness or flaw or even a kind of pipe dream. Strangely, they take no exception to the word when it is used in the context of Quantum Theory or Atomic Theory or the two Relativity Theories, etc. This surprises me when one considers the utterly bizarre world of the Quantum. Feynman described it all as ridiculous, and he was one of its true gurus! Yet, for all the fact that QT is unfinished business, it is undeniably the correct way of describing the world of the super-small. The great triumph of QT is that, unlike Evolution Theory, it lends itself to prediction and experimentation. Its daunting aspect lies in the hideously complex nature of its mathematics, so very few people can cope with it. I wish I could! Evolution, though, seems to be well within the grasp of anyone, so everyone feels qualified to jump into the fray and hold views they like to believe are as valid as anyone else's. Natural selection is glacially slow, untold generations being required for its effects to be witnessed. I sometimes think that some people will only be convinced of its truth when a chimpanzee gives birth to a human!! Astonishingly, there is far, far more evidence for natural selection than there is for QT, but it continues to struggle for acceptance. People of the intellectual level of Dawkins must be driven to drink by the stubborn ignorance of those who oppose Evolution. These nay-sayers cannot come forth with a single solitary idea that offers a better view of our living world than the utterly simple, elegant, beautiful idea of natural selection. They remain shut-eyed even when faced with what artificial selection has achieved in just a few centuries in going from wolf to all our dog breeds. Just think what might happen over millions of centuries! But let us return to that troublesome word "theory". I hate copying chunks from books, but I reproduce for you what Dawkins writes on page 9. He quotes two definitions of THEORY from the OED:

1. A scheme or system of ideas or statements held as an explanation or account of a group of facts or phenomena; a hypothesis that has been confirmed or established by observation or experiment, and is propounded or accepted as accounting for the known facts; a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed.

2. A hypothesis proposed as an explanation; hence, a mere hypothesis, speculation, conjecture; an idea or set of ideas about something; an individual view or notion.

Two very different definitions, you will agree. Scientists use definition 1. Creationists use definition 2. He then expands exhaustively on this. (One thing I love about Dawkins is his willingness, nay EAGERNESS, to find weaknesses in his own position. He never finds them!)

I strongly urge you, my friend, to get this book. You will LOVE it. I say this even though I am a long way from finishing it: I have to force myself to read it slowly lest I miss something or fail to give everything full consideration. Damn, I wish I were starting out on life's journey all over again - knowing what I do now, of course! (What a cheat!)

The problems are not with the word theory, but with the theories
themselves. Many advocates don't abide by even the first definition you took from
Dawkin's book. Often they refuse to look at evidence from observations or
experiments that contradict their theories. For example, I just asked HSB if
he'd seen the results, and was aware of the implications, of the LIGO
experiment, which has been running for five years. He hasn't replied yet, so I
will ask you the same question. As far as QT, you state it is unfinished
business, yet you say it is "undeniably the correct way of describing the world
of the small". Is that scientific? As you say, it lends itself to
prediction and experimentation, I'm well aware of all the money going into the
Hadrion, but, despite this and previous experiments like it, it is still
unfinished business. In science, math is helpful, especially with predictions, but
it's the observations and experiments that prove or disprove. Far too
often, a theories supporters fail to accept the negative results of their
experiments and instead, pour their time into more complex, expensive
experiments that lead to the same results. Negative results equals the falsification
of theory, surely you've heard of that?

As you say, natural selection is glacially slow, which is why Evolution has
trouble explaining the sudden appearance of Homo Sapiens. And why scholars
have trouble explaining the sudden appearance of the full blown Sumerian
civilization. There is evidence to explain both events, but scientists and
scholars continue to treat the evidence as myths, even though the original
translators and interpreters lacked the technological knowledge we have
today that might have helped them to see them differently. Is that scientific?
Aren't scientists supposed to look at all the evidence, or re-examine it
when there is reason to? Advances in technology has allowed us to take
second looks at theories.and evidence in many fields, our space program's
constant updates of Hubble are a good example, although even there new evidence
leads to ad hoc explanations instead of revisions of theories.

Are those that oppose Evolution all nay-sayers? Or are some also scientists
with opposing points of view supported by evidence? Or are some
Evolutionists that have come across conflicting evidence they didn't expect? I don't
consider myself an Evolutionist or a Creationist, I've felt for a long time
the truth is somewhere in the middle, some combination of the two. Could
Evolution be the tool of a Creator? As always, the problem is proving the
existence of a Creator. If I do read Dawkin's book, I will try to keep an
open mind. Starting life over with what I know now would be interesting and
exciting, because what I've found is that most of what I was taught was
wrong, and from what I see every day, is only getting worse. I'm glad you
consider me a friend, I see you as a friend also, as I do all our fellow
infidels.

It will be recalled that Darwinists tried to publicize the fossil named Ida as the so-called ancestor of human beings in May 2009.
A few months later :
Darwinists: ''We Confess, Ida Is Not A Transitional Form, It Is A Complete And Perfect Living Being!'' (But, when did they confess this? Right after Harun Yahya revealed their lies.)

http://www.darwinism-watch.com/index.php?git=ma...

Darwinism is an obsolete theory with no scientific evidence and is striven to be kept alive only to allegedly provide scientific arguments in favour of materialist philosophy. Previously, similar to Ida deception, Darwinist forgeries such as Nebraska Man, Archaeoraptor and Piltdown Man occupied public agenda in print media and so-called scientific magazines for days. In each one of these examples, evolutionist propaganda and “missing link found” fabrications turned out to be a disgrace for Darwinists and they had to retract their statements. The so-called“missing link” propaganda carried on the lemur fossil named Ida is once again rendered null and deceitful. Yet again Darwinists had to accept their defeat in dishonor. NOT ONLY ONE EVIDENCE HAS BEEN FOUND TO SUPPORT EVOLUTION UP UNTIL OUR DAY AND IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FIND ONE FROM NOW ONWARD.

I'm not a Darwinist, I believe there are many questions the theory of
evolution does not answer. There are many problems with how science and
scientists operate these days, just as their are problems with religion and
religious leaders, men are not perfect, and it's mankind's world these days.


In a message dated 11/4/2009 7:29:50 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

islam786 wrote, in response to SirWilhelm:

It will be recalled that Darwinists tried to publicize the fossil named
Ida as the so-called ancestor of human beings in May 2009.
A few months later :
Darwinists: ''We Confess, Ida Is Not A Transitional Form, It Is A Complete
And Perfect Living Being!'' (But, when did they confess this? Right after
Harun Yahya revealed their lies.)

http://www.darwinism-watch.com/index.php?git=ma...



Link to comment: http://disq.us/2zn8z

-----
Options: Respond in the body to post a reply comment.


To turn off notifications, go to: http://disqus.com/account/notifications/

islam786.

Sadly for you, only religious nuts like yourself support creationism in that way. 95% of the scientific community agree in evolution and gravity(yes, gravity is also a theory, not "belieiving" in evolution equals not believing in gravity)

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/

Take a look at this page, it might explain a few absurdities you might have read from a scientific illiterate as Harun Yahya.

I can quote to you really fast evolution, with only a few days apart.
Bacteria, if you start to cultivate bacteria in a laboratory, a few generations later you will have a milder strain. Why? because they do not require the same defenses as their "wild" cousins. If you get infected by E. Coli, as an example, the laboratory strain will not harm you in the same way as a "wild" strain would. I had this small inconvenient accident a few years ago.


Another small evidence of evolution; You know the third molars? Some people dont have them, I mean, not because the dentist took them out , but because they were never born!

More for you http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn7741-new-...

But the biggest problem here islam786, is that you have no evidence WHATSOEVER that creationism exists, no evidence to prove it is correct... nothing, zilch! Zero!
To do so, would mean you first need to prove that your god exists, and then following a daunting research as to why other gods don't exists but only your own!

So far, no muslim managed to prove that Allah exists, nor they ever managed to prove creationism exists.

The difference between us and you is that when we are wrong we admit, change and "evolve"; you on the other hand, even being wrong will still be in the same place and still claim the same thing, even after heavy evidence disproving your beliefs.

Necrowulf - I cannot doubt you on Darwins theory of natural selection - it is obvious to me and most people that the fittest will survive - you dont need Darwin to tell you that.
Insects and weeds acquire resistance to our insecticides and herbicides through the same process of natural selection.
humans love to fight each other - is this a form of natural selection (survival of the fittest) ?? Is this character programmed into human brains from birth.!!

Evolution is both a beautiful concept and an important one.....
But are Darwins works correct? i doubt very much - most of his theories have been proven incorrect recently.
Personally i would say human evolution from mokeys (macro-evolution) is very hard to believe!!!
He was wrong about what causes variation within a species.
His theory of inheritance turned out to be dead wrong.

Islam does not challenge evolution of living things. As Darwin has stated that life originally started in water. But what caused it to be created?? This is where i disagree with "evolution theory of Darwin"
Fluke cannot have created an organism - impossible.
I could leave 100000 bricks in a field and come back in a million million years and it will turn into a house?? nothing is impossible but come on its just not possible.....

And that out of water We made every living thing? (QURAN SURAH 21 verse 30)

God alone is Master of Existence. He alone causes all that is to be and not to be. Causes are without effect in themselves, but rather both cause and effect are created by Him. The causes and the effects of all processes, including those through which plant and animal species are individuated, are His work alone.

"...humans love to fight each other - is this a form of natural selection (survival of the fittest) ?? Is this character programmed into human brains from birth.!!..."


In a way, yes...Animals fight each other constantly, the difference is that sometimes, with our intellectual superiority over them, it means we fight for other arguments... besides reproduction, dominant, family, territory...etc.


"... Evolution is both a beautiful concept and an important one.....
But are Darwins works correct? i doubt very much - most of his theories have been proven incorrect recently...."

Have you seen the news lately? Even a earlier cousing of the T. Rex has been found!

"...Personally i would say human evolution from mokeys (macro-evolution) is very hard to believe!!!,.,"

Seriously? The 98% of our DNA being similar to gorillas and chimpanzees doesn't help you at all on this? We are Primates.

"...He was wrong about what causes variation within a species.
His theory of inheritance turned out to be dead wrong...."

Really? Why everything that is discovered proves evolution is corret?

"...Islam does not challenge evolution of living things. As Darwin has stated that life originally started in water. But what caused it to be created?? This is where i disagree with "evolution theory of Darwin"..."

You seem to be getting confused with evolution and start of life; In any case, check the Miller–Urey experiment

"...Fluke cannot have created an organism - impossible.
I could leave 100000 bricks in a field and come back in a million million years and it will turn into a house?? nothing is impossible but come on its just not possible...."

Difference -> Does bricks fight for their life? To exist? Nope.

Check the Miller–Urey experiment and it will answer your questions.


I challenge you with this,
1. prove that islam is a race
2. prove that Allah exists with evidence, peer reviewed scientific journals. No, I don't want the "look around you" excuse, I don't want the "open your heart" or even the "try to feel allah" excuses.

Doing so, might help your cause... I have laid out this challenge to everyone, so far, no one managed to answer it.

If you want proof god exists come and visit me in person - I can preform miracles, I have a stick that i can turn into a snake. I can also change water into wine.
Islam is a race ?? what you going on about?? Mankind can be classed as a race. The Jews are a race of people... Indians are a race.
Islam is not a race it is a belief - Islam is muti-race.

Do you know how similar human genes are to a mouse? how close are they to an apple??
You can take a human gene and insert it into bacteria, which we do to produce insulin. That being said, all the vast differences in life has to do with amount of DNA and of chromosomes and all the genes that the DNA encodes.

Miller - Urey experiment is basically :
Raw materials + Energy = Life molecules. (LOL)
Put some raw material in a flask shake the flask open the flask have you got life? No. keep shaking it harder and harder until you do!!! not exaclt an encouraging command..
DID MILLER AND UREY CREATE A SINGLE CELL ?? NO
DID MILLER AND UREY CREAT A SINGLE PROTIEN ?? NO
There whole experiment is full of flaws.... but you wouldnt know that...

No valid scientific explanation of life exists at present…

Do Bricks fight for there life ?? !!! Bricks are made of organic materials so taking into consideration Darwins school of thought you could say Bricks if left alone over a long enough time period would turn into cells - sprinkle some suger over them aswell and for a speedy transformation zap it with a laser.....!!!!
NECROWULF DO YOU BELIEVE IN TRANSFORMERS HAVE YOU SEEN THE FILM? IT IS NOT REAL IT IS MADE UP !!!!!!!!

An early cousin of T-REX has been found? so what a lion has cousins alive today - you dont need to talk about dinosaurs
its called micro evolution a big diffrence when to compared to macro evolution... but you already knew that...
Some scientists have been saying recently that bears are cousins with sea lions...

ARE YOU EVEN AWARE OF DARWINS THEORIES AND THAT MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PROVEN RECENTLY TO BE WRONG !!!!!
HIS THEORY ON NATURAL SELECTION IS COMMON SENSE YOU DONT NEED TO WRITE A BOOK ON IT !!!!!

Did you evolve from a donought ??? lol donought

"Islam is a race ?? what you going on about?? Mankind can be classed as a race. The Jews are a race of people... Indians are a race.
Islam is not a race it is a belief - Islam is muti-race."

"...Does your family know that you are a facist racist twat?.,.."

That comes from you, a response after Beejj attacked islam.
Indians, are not classified as race, they are Caucasians. In science it exists Asians, Caucasians, African descent(African-American for the US) and Latinos/Natives (Because it has both bone structures from Asians and Caucasians)


"...If you want proof god exists come and visit me in person - I can preform miracles, I have a stick that i can turn into a snake. I can also change water into wine...."

What is wrong with you and your desire for people to visit you? Do you want to kill us or something?
There is a slight problem with your argument there; For me to take "offense" or to even be "slightly" bothered by it, means that I must be either jew or christian. Sadly for you, I'm neither, I'm an atheist.

"...Do you know how similar human genes are to a mouse? how close are they to an apple??
You can take a human gene and insert it into bacteria, which we do to produce insulin. That being said, all the vast differences in life has to do with amount of DNA and of chromosomes and all the genes that the DNA encodes...."


You just answered your own question; it means we descend from one ancestor. Are you aware that a mouse gene for eyes can be implanted on a normal Fly, (Drosophila) and that fly spawn various eyes?
Yes, it means we came from a similar ancestor if the mouse Eye gene is similar to a Fly eye gene.


"...Raw materials + Energy = Life molecules. (LOL)
Put some raw material in a flask shake the flask open the flask have you got life? No. keep shaking it harder and harder until you do!!! not exaclt an encouraging command....."

Problem with your argument here; It would mean that Miller and Urey would need to live thousands of years. Life is not created in 1 year or 2 or in an instant like you believe. Shake your head and boom, a rat is born!

"...Do Bricks fight for there life ?? !!! Bricks are made of organic materials so taking into consideration Darwins school of thought you could say Bricks if left alone over a long enough time period would turn into cells - sprinkle some suger over them aswell and for a speedy transformation zap it with a laser.....!!!!"

Bricks already have bacteria, the chances are, they would disintegrate in a few hundred of years. Let me explain, the proteins and the molecules of life are constantly being created today, but the problem is that they also represent food for other animals.

----- Two percent of the carbon had formed amino acids that are used to make proteins in living cells, with glycine as the most abundant. Sugars, lipids, and some of the building blocks for nucleic acids were also formed.----
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_urey Not my preferred source, but it fits in here.

"...its called micro evolution a big diffrence when to compared to macro evolution..."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/8340922.stm

Micro and Macro are the same, if one occurs, the other occurs as well! The processes of one is exactly the same for the other one. A Gene mutates, later on you would have a more complex mutation if you combine all the mutations... Your genes are constantly being mutated, why do you think we have cancer?
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/06... New species

http://hmg.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/full/...


"...ARE YOU EVEN AWARE OF DARWINS THEORIES AND THAT MOST OF THEM HAVE BEEN PROVEN RECENTLY TO BE WRONG !!!!!..."

Where?

"...Did you evolve from a donought ??? lol donought..."

Do want to know why I know you have no argument, and can't answer my arguments properly? Because of the insults and being nervous. This is a classical example of someone who knows that is losing and can not prove anything. Please, prove to me that Allah exists and then your argument that creationism is correct might even stand a chance

Modifying DNA via mutation can never produce new genetic information to drive upward evolution, just like spilling coffee on a newspaper - modifying the distribution of the ink this will never improve the story.
Non living chemicals cannot become alive on their own.
A cell is a miniature factory with many active processes, not a simple blob of “protoplasm” as believed by Darwin. Lightening striking a mud puddle or some “warm little pond” will never produce life!!! But i must say an atheist has to justify his beliefs in something !!!

Is there a tendency for things, on their own, to “mix” with their surrounding environment over time becoming less ordered and eventually reaching a steady state. A glass of hot water becomes room temperature, buildings decay into rubble, and the stars will eventually burn out leading to the “heat death” of the universe. Howevere Darwins scenario proposes that over time things, on their own, became more ordered and structured.!! lol donought.... A human must repair a building to keep it from decaying.

As for your proof that god exists !!! i can preform miracels like i have stated come and meet in person - dont worry i wont bite...
Either the universe itself is eternal, or something or someone outside of and greater than the universe is eternal. We know that the universe is not eternal, it had a beginning (as evidenced by its expansion). Therefore God (the something or someone outside of the universe) must exist and must have created the universe. Einstein showed that space and time are related. If there is no space there is no time. Before the universe was created there was no space and therefore no concept of time. This is hard for us to understand as we are space-time creatures, but it allows for God to be an eternal being, completely consistent with scientific laws.
I DOUBT YOU CAN UNDERSTAND THIS??


Like you have stated i have said "...Does your family know that you are a facist racist twat?.,.." to Beejj ..... in reply to his comment of "To the rest of you Sceptred Islanders, spit on the sonsofbitches whenever you see them." !!! I would assume he would spit on an Indian becasue they look like muslims..? I would see him as a racist twat - i dont care if you dont class Islam as a race but for someone to say spit on muslims what would you class them as ?

Thank you, Professor 786. Scintillating stuff! What an intellect!

"Modifying DNA via mutation can never produce new genetic information to drive upward evolution, just like spilling coffee on a newspaper - modifying the distribution of the ink this will never improve the story."

I thought you were familiar with genetics, or at least with the concept of genetics. I suggest you read about Mendell, and then learn more about gene coding, codons, and other genetic information.
If what you say is true, then why don't I have a third molar?

I... if you don't know even the basic information, how can I instruct you on evolution?


"...Non living chemicals cannot become alive on their own.
A cell is a miniature factory with many active processes, not a simple blob of “protoplasm” as believed by Darwin. Lightening striking a mud puddle or some “warm little pond” will never produce life!!! But i must say an atheist has to justify his beliefs in something !!!..."

I quote Miller-Urey experiment, its like I'm talking to someone else now! Before you accepted the fact of organic chemicals, now, you retracted it!

"...Is there a tendency for things, on their own, to “mix” with their surrounding environment over time becoming less ordered and eventually reaching a steady state. A glass of hot water becomes room temperature, buildings decay into rubble, and the stars will eventually burn out leading to the “heat death” of the universe..."

You are unfamiliar with a theory as proven as evolution, it is called gravity; Then we have another theory as proven as gravity and is called evolution;

"..Darwins scenario proposes that over time things, on their own, became more ordered and structured.."
I don't think you know about Darwin's theory that well. He never claimed that...


"...As for your proof that god exists !!! i can preform miracels like i have stated come and meet in person - dont worry i wont bite......"

I don't want to die. Do it and film it, I'm sure James Randi will give you a million dollars if you can do it properly!

"...Either the universe itself is eternal, or something or someone outside of and greater than the universe is eternal. ..."

It is easier to claim that "goddiit" than trying to find the real answer. I'll quote you a few String Theory, Quantum Physics, Gravity.

"...Before the universe was created there was no space and therefore no concept of time. This is hard for us to understand as we are space-time creatures, but it allows for God to be an eternal being, completely consistent with scientific laws...."

I suggest you to look up on information related to big bang and its countless evidence; It also explains about dark matter, anti matter and even the space-time conundrum.

"... would assume he would spit on an Indian becasue they look like muslims..? I would see him as a racist twat - i dont care if you dont class Islam as a race but for someone to say spit on muslims what would you class them..."

I still fail to see how you could have reached that interpretation based on his answer to you.


Once again I'm suprised by the islamic intellect, or lack thereoff. It never ceases to amaze me how muslims still fail to prove the existance of god, I'm still waiting for evidence, I'm still waiting for that mind-shattering explanation and I'm still waiting for peer-reviewed journals! In fact; what you just said was what people from thousands of years ago believed, something that science already proved wrong.

"Jews are a race of people".

Are you sure of that?

You don't have a clue about what you're talking.You are an IMBECILE.


"keep shaking it harder and harder until you do!!! "

That's what your uncle told your mother last week.She did it, allright.


"Bricks are made of organic materials so taking into consideration Darwins school of thought you could say Bricks if left alone over a long enough time period would turn into cells "

You're a PINHEAD.

you seem sexually frustrated JEWHAWK !!!

"Most of his theories have been proven (sic) incorrect recently." Tell us more about this, please. While you do so, explain what you mean by "theories". As far as I am aware he had just one, so I'll be happy to know the others. I would have thought that a single PROOF of Darwin's being wrong would have been front page news all over the world, but I seem to have missed it, so I am beside myself awaiting your reply.

People of your persuasion make me laugh. Let me tell you why. As things stand we do not know how life began, and our ideas about the origins of the universe are so sketchy as to be stabs in the dark. Because of this, you and your ilk proclaim that something called God must therefore exist! You scream for evidence for evolution (flatly denying it when it is presented to you) but accept the God theory even though there is not a shred of evidence to support it. The best you can come up with is that God MUST exist and that there is no other way to explain our existence. Where is the logic in this? Why do I not believe in God's existence? Because there is no evidence for it. If we had just a single piece of evidence I would join the ranks of the religious, but there isn't one. The world is full of people who are religious because of the brainwashing they received when they were children. True, there are some who converted from atheism to a religion after attaining maturity, but they form a minuscule minority of the religious community, I strongly suspect. Religion thrives because of its commitment to indoctrination of children. You believe what your parents and others made you believe. Throw in a heavy dose of terrifying threats of eternal suffering in some idiotic fire or other and you soon infect and enslave another generation to go forth spreading the message. And where's the proof of it all? Nowhere to be seen.

Beejj; I'm glad most people is not like islam786. Why?

Because if they were like him I'm sure we would still believe that lightning was caused by Zeus in mount Olympus! The waves by Poseidon...

It's good to have you back, Necro. You are on sparkling form.

Thanks, I was (still am, to some extent) depressed after a few problems that you might be aware.
I still had a few practice rounds in youtube with like 4 or 5 muslims at the same time. Mostly ended up with them calling me a racist!

I asked for evidence and never got it... I hate being called a racist.

But anyway, it is good to be back, with great people posting in this blog, like Kal, you(Beejj), HSB, Tonto, SirW, infidelesto, ljcarolyne and many others.

Darwin was WRONG about what causes variation within a species.
He was wrong about a famous geologic mystery, the parallel shelves along a Scottish valley called Glen Roy.
His theory of inheritance turned out to be dead WRONG.
Fortunately for Darwin evolution by natural selection represented Darwin at his best, which is to say scientific observation and careful thinking at its best.

You have mentioned in another post that Darwin did not say life started by chance.
He assumed life was so simple that it would just “start to exist”....
Like Necruwolf has mentioned the Miller–Urey experiment, this is an off shoot of Darwins theory - he was the creator of this school of thought.... You could call people who assume life started by chance "darwinists"
This is where is disagree with "darwinists" the origin of life how a complex cell was first created...
Obviously ony a fool will disregards all the works of Darwin as bullshit but he he does talk alot of sense in his theory of natural selection.

I have copy pasted the paragraphs below :

You might recall the narrative of the prebiotic or primordial soup as the construction site for life from your school days. The following typical “recipe for life” is found in evolutionary textbooks:

“To find out if there is life in the Universe, it's useful to look at how it began here on earth. Follow our step-by-step recipe to see how life started:

1) Mix ingredients
For life to evolve, simple molecules have to combine to form more complex ones. This mixing would have happened in the seas of the early earth, often called the primordial soup.

2) Add energy
Next you need energy. This may have come from lightning storms or hot underwater springs. This injection of energy sparked chemical reactions. These simple molecules began joining to form larger, more complex ones, called “amino acids”. In a classic experiment in 1953, Stanley Miller and Harold Urey recreated the primordial soup in the laboratory. By passing electricity through a mixture of simple molecules, they were able to make amino acids.

3) Form complex molecules
Amino acids then joined together end-to-end to form long, chain-like molecules, known as proteins. Proteins are essential for building a living creature. They are involved in the formation of just about everything in your body, from the color of your skin to the layout of neurons in your brain.

4) Wait for life to reproduce
Another complex molecule that was formed during these reactions was DNA. DNA has an amazing characteristic that makes it essential for life – it can reproduce itself. It also carries all the code to make a living creature.”

However – does this make sense? Is this what modern evolutionary scientists really believe?

How can something as complex as a cell be made by chance? What are your thoughts on this beejj ? would you agree with people that say life started by chance? like i have stated i disagree strongly with this - a living cell consisting of very very complex systems does not magically appear by fluke or mutation...

"Darwin was WRONG "...

And YOU are right.

Frankly, WHAT A MORON !

On the Jews and Their Lies

786, you would do well to realise that

1. Evolution "theory" does not need fossils to support it, and

2. Darwin was a deeply religious man who was intensely troubled by his discovery of his great truth and hesitated for many years before publishing. He clearly stated that if a single piece of evidence could be unearthed to falsify the process of natural selection he would gladly and willingly accept it. None has ever been found. No rabbit fossils in the Precambrian!

Stick to religion. Science is far, far beyond you.

I understand your position Sir W in fact I know of many spurious investigations by third raters that are de facto an egregious waste of public money.
But there are diamonds amongst the dross who make discoveries that can be world changing.
Old Ronnie the reasonable(Ronald Reagan)put his finger on it when he said that the world was more advanced as a result of the space race(the necessary scientific advancements therefrom have
kickstarted all manner of increased knowlege).
Science is about conjecture, experiment and conclusion.
There's benefit in getting conjecture wrong in order to find the truth.
Or rather discovering more of that which we don't know.
If one considers the ever accelerating rate of knowlege aquisition; then backing science would seem to be a veritable no brainer.
But the religious Luddites seek to curtail this advancement with their idiotic faith based opposition(and here Muslims are joined by cretins of the Bible belt).
It's no wonder people like Dawkins have become militants when principles of common sense are at issue.
The LHC is a machine costing billions that might unlock the answer to several unanswered problems(and then again it might not).
Science is like that;if at first one doesn't succeed etc.
Science also keeps dickheads like Islam 786 from parroting his puerile perversions.
Mouthing as he does the mindless machinations of the mentally ill.

You are going to have to tell me the names of top scientists who will not accept the first definition of "theory" as being the only one applicable to science. I am not interested in the views of lesser mortals. No serious scientist will ever not look at evidence which contradicts accepted theory. Indeed, a great deal of time and effort is devoted to doing just that! Scientists rejoice when such events occur because an entirely new world of thought has then suddenly revealed itself. If you think otherwise either you have never met a REAL scientist or you have met only the show ponies of the science world.

It is not clear what point you are making about the LIGO experiment, so please amplify.

Yes, QT provides a brilliant description of the world of the super-small even if there is more work to be done and more treasures to be unearthed. The Quantum boys and girls know this. How different from brain-dead creationists they are!

Negative results are greatly prized by scientists because they reveal that all is not well with present thinking. You seem to think that scientists become a bit pissed off by such results, but nothing could be farther from the truth. Perhaps the greatest negative result in the history of science was the Michelson-Morley work on the speed of light. This experiment may lay claim to being the most valuable one ever to be carried out. Long gone are the days of the likes of the phlogistonists who would resort to ludicrous near-criminality to defend their precious views. There is no place for vanity in modern science, so only the pseudo-scientists, not worth a pinch of corn, display such weakness. PLEASE stop saying that this is not true, because you make yourself look silly.

Be very careful with your use of the word "sudden" when referring to the appearance of HS or any other entity. And don't claim that scientists refuse to have open minds or steadfastly refuse to consider the views of the ancients. We revere many of the ancient Greeks, etc., for their incisive thinking, but we laugh to scorn those Bronze Age desert tribesmen who told us that the world was created in six days about 6,000 years ago. We'd be the greatest fools in history were we not to do so. Again: do you HONESTLY believe a scientist would ignore evidence? Please name me one such person.

You ask if scientists should examine and re-examine evidence. What else do you think they do???

Name me just ONE highly regarded scientist who denies Darwinian evolution. ONE. Not some also-ran skulking in obscurity, but someone to whom the world will pay heed - someone with runs on the board. While you are about it, tell me about the evidence you claim supports the view which opposes natural selection. Who are its proponents? Is it taught at Harvard, MIT, Stanford, Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, the Max Planck Institute or at any of the other front-rank universities of the world?

I see that our resident Muslim idiot "786" claims that biologists stated that the fossil to which he refers was an important forerunner of humans. Not true. They did not make such a claim. They said it MIGHT prove to be the case (implying it might not!), and that is a different kettle of fish. Journalists, as is their wont, sensationalised the find in their usual manner, and cretins like 786 believed them. Read what Dawkins said at the time ........!

786 also states that there is no evidence for evolution. Oh God, why do I have to sit here pointing out the idiocy and bare-faced lying nature of his claim? There is ABUNDANT evidence for evolution. Has it been demonstrated under controlled experimental conditions? YES. YES. YES. 786 is hard to take when he carries on about Islam, but when he turns his scrotum - sorry, "mind" - to science he transcends the idiotic and passes into the realms of something hard to define. A true Muslim, our boy.

Just because some Muslims are stupid enough to deny evolution means nothing. When Kansas tries to ban evolution from its high school biology classes are those "true Christians" or "true Americans". No they are idiots. Just like this 786.
Science is science. And bigotry is bigotry.
Look at MIT and tell me the number of Muslims there isn't way higher then our proportion in the American population. There are plenty of Muslims that embrace science. Although sadly most Universities in Muslims countries (and African countries, and South America countries) still need to develop to properly develop research and development programs.

bigotry - thanks....

http://www.reviewevolution.com/press/pressRelea...

Islam does not challenge evolution of living things. As Darwin has stated that life originally started in water. But what caused it to be created?? This is where i disagree with "evolution theory of Darwin"
it is obvious to me and most people that the fittest will survive - you dont need Darwin to tell you that.Insects and weeds acquire resistance to our insecticides and herbicides through the same process of natural selection.
Evolution is both a beautiful concept and an important one.....
But are Darwins works correct? i doubt very much - most of his theories have been proven incorrect recently.
Fluke cannot have created an organism - impossible.

Beejj the evolution theory created by Darwin does hold some truth. Like i have stated earlier natural selection is evident in life. The main points I disagree on is life was created by "chance" this is what most people question. How can something as complex as a cell be created by chance? like wise was the universe created by chance? These question are debatable.

What a strange message! Let us look closely at it.

Islam does not challenge evolution of living things. Evolution is a beautiful concept and an important one. But are Darwin's works correct? I doubt very much ....... The evolution theory created by Darwin does hold some truth. Natural selection is evident in life.

Make up your mind. Where does Darwin's epic work propose a mechanism for the beginning of life? Tell me. Darwin never said that life was created by chance, so stop telling lies. You are unable to accept that chance can play a role in our universe? Why? You say that such questions are debatable. Scientists would wholeheartedly agree with you, but the God believers would not. God did it all. Period. Simple. Fait accompli.

_http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/guest.htm_
(http://www.thunderbolts.info/thunderblogs/guest...)

_http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ep8d37ws_
(http://www.holoscience.com/news.php?article=ep8...)

Peter Godfrey-Smith’s Darwinian Populations and Natural Selection is a
dense and deep work on the foundations of evolutionary biology. Evolutionary
biologists tell us that evolution by natural selection occurs when a few
ingredients are present—specifically, when there is variation with respect to
a trait, those variants differ in the numbers of offspring produced, and
this variation is heritable to some degree. Unfortunately, as
Godfrey-Smith argues, this recipe is far too simple, and even more complicated versions
such as the replicator approach offered by Richard Dawkins suffer serious
flaws. This “classical recipe,” for example, ignores the fact that for
some organisms numbers of offspring don’t necessarily determine reproductive
success (“fitness”) whereas rates of population growth, age structure, or
variation in expected numbers of offspring do. Likewise, natural selection
and patterns of heredity can “cancel” each other out, leaving no
evolutionary change. The concept of Dawkins’s replicators—those entities that
interact with like entities and of which copies are made—presupposes that
there can be no reproduction without replication, which is false when we have
continuously varying traits evolving by natural selection. Thus, our
standard models for understanding what evolution by natural selection is are
just too simple

These distinctions are skillfully employed. For example, contrary to
Richard Dawkins, many instances of genic selection are instances of scaffolded
reproduction of genes by cells, and evolutionary models are ultimately
representing selection of organisms via their genetic properties. Often
(though not always), when we treat genes as evolutionary units we imbue
evolutionary biology with an “agential” framework involving agents, goals,
strategies, and purposes that can corrupt the foundations of evolutionary biology.

Darwinian Populations and Natural Selection raises difficult questions as
well. Godfrey-Smith and others have argued that there is a role in
evolutionary biology for “functional” notions. For example, they hold that it
makes sense to claim that the heart in humans has the function of
circulating blood. However, given the author’s criticism of the “agential”
framework and the teleology behind it, is this new work compatible with the old?
In addition, although spatial frameworks or state spaces can be exceedingly
useful for understanding evolutionary processes, one can ask if they also
conceal much of importance. Their use is critically dependent on which
dimensions are included (and which omitted) and on whether one can “score”
those dimensions in plausible ways. Sometimes one wonders whether too much
is being omitted and worries that variables like S cannot be scored in any
object sense.


In a message dated 11/4/2009 8:46:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

Beejj wrote, in response to SirWilhelm:

You are going to have to tell me the names of top scientists who will not
accept the first definition of "theory" as being the only one applicable to
science. I am not interested in the views of lesser mortals. No serious
scientist will ever not look at evidence which contradicts accepted theory.
Indeed, a great deal of time and effort is devoted to doing just that!
Scientists rejoice when such events occur because an entirely new world of
thought has then suddenly revealed itself. If you think otherwise either you
have never met a REAL scientist or you have met only the show ponies of the
science world.

It is not clear what point you are making about the LIGO experiment, so
please amplify.

Yes, QT provides a brilliant description of the world of the super-small
even if there is more work to be done and more treasures to be unearthed.
The Quantum boys and girls know this. How different from brain-dead
creationists they are!

Negative results are greatly prized by scientists because they reveal that
all is not well with present thinking. You seem to think that scientists
become a bit pissed off by such results, but nothing could be farther from
the truth. Perhaps the greatest negative result in the history of science
was the Michelson-Morley work on the speed of light. This experiment may lay
claim to being the most valuable one ever to be carried out. Long gone are
the days of the likes of the phlogistonists who would resort to ludicrous
near-criminality to defend their precious views. There is no place for vanity
in modern science, so only the pseudo-scientists, not worth a pinch of
corn, display such weakness. PLEASE stop saying that this is not true, because
you make yourself look silly.

Be very careful with your use of the word "sudden" when referring to the
appearance of HS or any other entity. And don't claim that scientists refuse
to have open minds or steadfastly refuse to consider the views of the
ancients. We revere many of the ancient Greeks, etc., for their incisive
thinking, but we laugh to scorn those Bronze Age desert tribesmen who told us
that the world was created in six days about 6,000 years ago. We'd be the
greatest fools in history were we not to do so. Again: do you HONESTLY believe
a scientist would ignore evidence? Please name me one such person.

You ask if scientists should examine and re-examine evidence. What else do
you think they do???

Name me just ONE highly regarded scientist who denies Darwinian evolution.
ONE. Not some also-ran skulking in obscurity, but someone to whom the
world will pay heed - someone with runs on the board. While you are about it,
tell me about the evidence you claim supports the view which opposes natural
selection. Who are its proponents? Is it taught at Harvard, MIT, Stanford,
Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, the Max Planck Institute or at any of the
other front-rank universities of the world?

I see that our resident Muslim idiot "786" claims that biologists stated
that the fossil to which he refers was an important forerunner of humans.
Not true. They did not make such a claim. They said it MIGHT prove to be the
case (implying it might not!), and that is a different kettle of fish.
Journalists, as is their wont, sensationalised the find in their usual manner,
and cretins like 786 believed them. Read what Dawkins said at the time
........!

786 also states that there is no evidence for evolution. Oh God, why do I
have to sit here pointing out the idiocy and bare-faced lying nature of his
claim? There is ABUNDANT evidence for evolution. Has it been demonstrated
under controlled experimental conditions? YES. YES. YES. 786 is hard to
take when he carries on about Islam, but when he turns his scrotum - sorry,
"mind" - to science he transcends the idiotic and passes into the realms of
something hard to define. A true Muslim, our boy.

Link to comment: http://disq.us/31msj

-----
Options: Respond in the body to post a reply comment.


To turn off notifications, go to: http://disqus.com/account/notifications/

start of life as we know started in water.....
And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things. (QURAN SURAH 4 verse 45)

big bang theory...
Are they not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass and We exploded them out? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth? (QURAN SURAH 21 verse 30)

The Universe will also shrink.....
The Day that We roll up the heavens like a scroll rolled up for books (completed),- even as We produced the first creation, so shall We produce a new one: a promise We have undertaken: truly shall We fulfil it. (QURAN SURAH 21 verse 104)

Expanding universe....
And the firmament, We constructed with power and skill and verily We are expanding it. (QURAN SURAH 51 verse 47)

collapse of the universe - day of judgement - quran explains how an exploding star this will look like...check out this image taken by hubble telescope of "the cats eye nebula" a star exploding 3000 light years away.... http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html

And when the heaven splitteth asunder and becometh ROSY-LIKE PAINT (QURAN SURAH 55 verse 37)

You know I don't believe Allah is God or even "a god" so I don't know why you bother quoting from his sources. But since you brought up the Big Bang theory, I'll ask you the same thing I've asked Beejj and HSB, have you seen the results of the LIGO experiment and are you aware of the implications of that? Or have you heard of any theories that contradict the Big Bang? Or are you too conditioned to look outside Islam for answers?

please correct me if i am wrong in assuming LIGO is an "attempt" to observe gravitational waves emitted by the big bang... i have not looked into the latest results of the expermient maybe you could explain in a nutshell?
I have heard of theories contradicting the big bang, but the big bang theory is the most plausible theory to date in my eyes, although the bouncing theory and the bubble universe are also strong contenders.
Islam does not condition people not to look for answers outside Islam... the main purpose of life in Islam is to worship the creator (god) and to pursue knowledge.

The LIGO experiment was designed to detect gravity waves, it has failed to
do so, that falsifies the theory of gravity waves. Without gravity waves,
Einstein's theories of General and Special Relativity are falsified. Without
them, the Big Bang theory is falsified. All of Cosmology should start
over from scratch. I recommend you look into Electric Universe or Plasma
theory. It is a theory under development, but even in it's present forms, it
makes predictions and answers questions the Big Bang couldn't. Good luck in
your pursuit of knowledge, if you have an open mind, you will find there is
more we don't know than there is what we do know, and much of what we are
told is fact, is wrong.


In a message dated 11/4/2009 7:56:23 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
writes:

islam786 wrote, in response to SirWilhelm:

please correct me if i am wrong in assuming LIGO is an "attempt" to
observe gravitational waves emitted by the big bang... i have not looked into the
latest results of the expermient maybe you could explain in a nutshell?
I have heard of theories contradicting the big bang, but the big bang
theory is the most plausible theory to date in my eyes, although the bouncing
theory and the bubble universe are also strong contenders.
Islam does not condition people not to look for answers outside Islam...
the main purpose of life in Islam is to worship the creator (god) and to
pursue knowledge.

Link to comment: http://disq.us/2zotp

-----
Options: Respond in the body to post a reply comment.


To turn off notifications, go to: http://disqus.com/account/notifications/

"there is more we don't know than there is what we do know, and much of what we are
told is fact, is wrong. "

I would agree 100% with you on that....

Interseting no waves were detected by the tools available today - still doesnt prove there are no waves out there?? i would say that they have not detected any waves yet !!! the LIGO experiment has not proven that no waves exist.

I have not looked into this in detail so i do apologise if im wrong...

When an experiment that's designed to detect evidence to prove or disprove
a theory fails to detect that evidence, the theory is considered
falsified, that's how the scientific method is supposed to work. The experiment was
designed to be detect "ordinary" gravity waves, during the course of 5
years it's been operating, several super novas were detected, gravity waves
from them should have been easily detected, none were. Unfortunately, the
scientists involved with the experiment decided the theory wasn't the problem.
They are now planning on spending millions of tax dollars more to make the
experiment 10 times more sensitive. Could the fact they would have been out
of jobs otherwise have been a factor? This kind of thing happens all the
time in today's "science", perhaps for the same reason, the scientists jobs
are at stake? If all of Cosmology and much of Physics would have to start
over from scratch, how many of those "experts" would be out of work? I could
go on, but you should look into it more detail yourself, if you have the
time.

Sir W, my dear friend, please refrain from such cynicism.

Slow down, Sir W!! The fact that experiments have yet to detect gravity waves proves only that they are damnably difficult to detect, and will require more sophisticated techniques. It is stretching things a bit far to say that the General Theory is to be thrown into the trashcan!

You puzzle me. You point out that the Electric Universe theory is still developing and seem to place great faith in it (God knows why), but you are ready to damn QT because it, too, continues to develop!!

This is what it says in the Surah 4:45
004.045
YUSUFALI: But Allah hath full knowledge of your enemies: Allah is enough for a protector, and Allah is enough for a Helper.
PICKTHAL: Allah knoweth best (who are) your enemies. Allah is sufficient as a Guardian, and Allah is sufficient as a Supporter.
SHAKIR: And Allah best knows your enemies; and Allah suffices as a Guardian, and Allah suffices as a Helper.


This is Surah 21:30
021.030
YUSUFALI: Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them, and we made every living thing of water? Will they not then believe?
SHAKIR: Do not those who disbelieve see that the heavens and the earth were closed up, but We have opened them; and We have made of water everything living, will they not then believe?

Even if you claim the mention of "water", ancient greeks already knew this... so, what's new?


Surah 21:104 finally a koranic quotation in which you are not wrong. But just so you


Surah 51:47
051.047
YUSUFALI: With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
PICKTHAL: We have built the heaven with might, and We it is Who make the vast extent (thereof).
SHAKIR: And the heaven, We raised it high with power, and most surely We are the makers of things ample.

The quran DOES NOT EXPLAIN how a supernova occurs, I still can't see how someone could have reached into that conclusion; Could you quote a islamic verse for alien life and dinosaurs?


In conclusion, you either have a very shitty quran, or you are being deceived by some ignorant. The quran also claims this, does this means that Heliocentric theory is wrong also?

21:33 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

"The sun ... runneth unto an appointed term."
The sun (according to the Quran) orbits the earth. 13:2

"And the earth have We spread out."
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 50:7

"And the earth have We laid out, how gracious is the Spreader (thereof)!"
The earth is flat according to the Quran. 51:48

"The moon was rent in twain."
Muhammaed split the moon into two pieces. Beat that one, Jesus! 54:1-2

start of life as we know started in water.....
And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things. (QURAN SURAH 4 verse 45) - this is actually from SURAH 24 verse 45 - sorry i made a slight type error....

The others quotes are correct...
As for the earth being flat mentioned in the Quran??
Did you know that the Qur’an told us that the earth was round 1400 years ago?
Today we know that the Earth is oval shaped, bulging at the equator. Thirteen centuries ago it was thought that the earth was flat. It was not known then that the earth was round, let alone oval.
The Quran states that the earth is oval:

"and the Earth, after that, He made it like a deheya" (SURAH 79 verse 30)

The word "deheya" in Arabic means an egg, hence the oval shape. But the verse also includes a further remarkably accurate scientific fact. The words 'after that' clearly indicate that the earth acquired the oval shape at a later stage to it's formation. Modern science will testify that the bulging of the earth at the equator is a result of the continuous spinning of the earth on it's axis, and thus had to occur sometime after the formation of the earth. The earth spins on it's axis at a speed of one thousand kilometres per hour.

The sun does have an orbit - solar astronomers have been able to observe that the sun is moving!! but you would know that wouldnt you??? the sun has its own orbit just like the moon and the earth....
And the sun is constantly moving in the direction of its ultimate abode of rest. This is the decree of the Almighty, the All-Knowing.And for the moon We have regulated stages until it looks like a thin branch of an old palm tree.Nor does it behove for the sun to overtake the moon nor for the night to overtake the day ... (QURAN SURAH 37 verse 39)

"When you look at the mountains, you think that they are standing still. But they are moving, like the clouds. Such is the manufacture of God, who perfected everything. He is fully Cognizant of everything you do." (QURAN SURAH 27 verse 88)

The orbits of the heavenly bodies are mentioned in the verse:

"and the sun and the moon, all travelling in orbits." (SURAH 21 verse 33)

The quran DOES NOT EXPLAIN how a supernova occurs, I still can't see how someone could have reached into that conclusion; ?? donought.... !! there verses i have quoted are all correct. Surah 55 verse 37 explains how a supernova looks!!! here is a few diffrent translations of surah 55 verse 37:

When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:

So when the heaven shall rent asunder, and turn yellowish-red like oil.

When the sky is torn open, and it becomes red like ointment:

NOW - check out this image taken by hubble telescope of "the cats eye nebula" a star exploding 3000 light years away....
http://antwrp.gsfc.nasa.gov/apod/ap991031.html

"When the sun is rounded (swelling like a ball)"

"When the stars have collapsed"

"When the oceans boil over in a swell" (SURAH 81 verse 6)

"And Allah has created every animal from water: of them there are some that creep on their bellies; some that walk on two legs; and some that walk on four. Allah creates what He wills for verily Allah has power over all things. (QURAN SURAH 4 verse 45) - this is actually from SURAH 24 verse 45 - sorry i made a slight type error...."


Once again you fail to realize that this exact information was already known.
Many Greek scientists thought about natural selection and the origin of life.
Anaximander believed that marine life was the first life on Earth and that changes happened to animals when they moved to dry land. Empedocles had the idea of chance combinations of organs arising and dying out because of their lack of adaptation. Aristotle, a Greek philosopher who contributed many works in the sciences, believed that there is purpose in the workings of nature, and mistakes are also made. He thought that nature working so perfectly is a necessity.
http://www.crystalinks.com/greekscience.html

The rest..I grew tired of you, then maybe someone who was once a muslim can shed some light in your inability to comprehend science.I'll let a ex-muslim reply to you
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQg6x-K82IA

Thanks for that Necro it's always a pleasure to read the thoughts of an educated man.

Thank you!

I realized it was a waste of time replying to everything from islam 786, so I decided to look up for this video again and post it here.

As a fellow Muslim I want to advise Mr. 786 that he should know his audience. People on this website don't like Muslims. If you are going to post here try to reach out to people to show them that we Muslims aren't crazy monsters with fangs. But trying to prostelyze, and quoting the Quran will only make people make fun of you and the Quran.
Questioning widely accepted science is just going to make people think of you (and by extension all Muslims) as backwards neanderthals.
Its funny is a Christian denies evolution he's just a nut pot. But if a Muslim does it it is a sign that we are all Mouth Breathing morons. (Which some of us are)
Just my opinion.

Wow Mr Ram your first paragraph is absolutely true.
You are the first Muslim to realise that quoting the Koranus is boring and only exacerbates contempt;and believing that we happy infidels here believe the Koranus has any authority is an exercise in futility.
Questioning accepted science is similarly so.
Please continue to contribute as you appear to be someone who gets it.
Your acknowlegement that many of your coreligionists are idiots is really most refreshing.
Now how about campaigning for the principles of free speech at your local madrassa.
The fact that you seem vicariously embarrassed by the turgid outpourings of 786 is really a very good start.

I tried that Snack.

It's all smoke and mirrors with Ram.

He "says" he rejects political Islam yet does everything in his power to
make excuses for it while insistently attacking the values of western
civilization. He's a leftist, marxist, Islamo-apologist, masquerading as a
"tolerant" Muslim. Ask him his opinion on CAIR and you'll know all you need
to know about him.

"People on this website don't like muslims"

As far as I'm concerned, your assessment is 100% accurate.



"We muslims aren't crazy monsters with fangs"

I never said muslims have fangs.


"'People will think of muslims as backward neanderthals".

Bingo! That's the mildest thought I've got about muslims.


"We muslims are all Mouth Breathing morons"

I do agree.I'd add EXTREMELY DANGEROUS, though.

"People on this website don't like muslims." Why?

Yes, it's true: you really are an idiot.

Where does the Bible say life began in water?

Hello, from California HSB. Thanks for the good word. I can't classify Islam786 and those like him. It is hard to believe that he actually believes that Mohammad is anyone other than a once alive and now dead Arabian bandit. It is curious how one can believe in the myth of Islam's superiority without any evidence to back it up. I don't know if I could withstand the impact of encountering the clearly superior culture and technology of the West without seriously doubting the desert despot.
I hope you can get fresh pressed apple cider in your part of the world. I can't find it out here in the land of beaches and palm trees. Perhaps a good glass of apple cider would clear out the cob webs for Islam786 et al. Wouldn't that be nice?
Bron

Ah, dear Bronwyn, I enjoy your contributions so much. Little wonder Muslims loathe you. We can talk about Muslims and moderate Muslims and whatever-the-hell Muslims until we are blue in the face, but an undeniable fact remains - a fact which liberals dare not confront. Had Islam conquered the world 1400 or so years ago all the great works of Western art would not now exist. Yes, I am referring to the fruits of Leonardo, Michelangelo, Vincent, Bach, Beethoven, Mozart and .... (gasp) Bob Dylan. Physics as we know it would still await its birth. Newton, Faraday and the rest of the gang would never have had the opportunity to unleash their gigantic intellects upon Nature because they would have been too busy praying 5 times a day and obeying the edicts of moronic Imams or whatever. Medicine? No X-rays, no NMR, no antibiotics, no knowledge of genes. Darwin, had he been allowed to undertake his voyage, would have been stoned or worse. No TV. No mains electricity. No radio. No aircraft. No internal combustion engine. No computers. Liberals reading this will denounce what I write, but they do so out of stubborn refusal to face the truth of the strangulation of the human mind that Islam is hell-bent on achieving. Islam cares nothing for the progress we prize. As far as I know it is unique amongst the world's religions (if it can ever be called a religion) to take this stance. Yes, there was a golden age long, long ago when Islamic scholars were the intellectual light of the world, preserving the treasures of the Ancient Greek and Indian mathematicians and coming forth with the luminous outpourings of their own minds (I personally treasure the contributions made by the undeniably great Jabir, or Geber, as he is generally known in the West), but for many hundreds of years Islam has spent its time looking inward to focus on such damnable nonsense as would make Tom & Jerry seem to be erudite. Thus, the world has left Islam far, far behind despite the huge start it had. Just consider: when scholarship blossomed in Islamic lands, Europe was a filthy, disgusting, disease-ridden hovel and Columbus had not been born. Christendom, for all its myriad shortcomings, grudgingly allowed the creeping rise of intellectual exploration while Islam suffocated those who might have contributed mightily to the general good. Islam was defeated in Spain and became a curiosity in Europe. How many Islamic Newtons and Einsteins were sacrificed at the altar of the absurd creed of Mohammed? We will never know. How many potential Feynmans and Bohrs currently languish in Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan, Yemen and Afghanistan? Who knows? We'll never know. Islam deprives the world of untold numbers of priceless scholars, for it is the mortal enemy of those who would bring progress. Islam despises progress. Yes, it parasitically feeds upon the rewards of progress won by free-thinkers of the non-Islamic world, but its contributions are nothing. Every Muslim must know the truth of this, but they all refuse to admit it. And all the while we have an even greater evil in our midst - the likes of Obama and Tony Blair and Gordon Brown who cravenly proclaim that Islam is a valued contributor to our modern world.........

This is beautifully written and everything we have come to expect of you. I am going away for a while and have vital business to take care of. I take this battle with me. Now that my eyes are opened I will take every opportunity to do my part to save our nation and rescue those who want help. I am comforted by the thought of all the beloved infidels doing their bit. Yes, we will win, but it might get sticky.
Godspeed.
Bron

You do realize that the basis for the transmission of Classical knowledge to Western Europe was through Arabic translations, right?
That the Arabs refined mathematics and the number system and Algebra and developed the first set of rigors that can be compared to the scientific method, right?
Remember how Copernicus and Galileo were mistreated by the Catholic Church?

Clearly, you need to read my previous posts. I assure you I need no lessons in the history of science. I have repeatedly acknowledged the great debt owed to ancient Islamic scholars. Would that things were similar to-day!

Beejj
Take a peak in this
http://www.ucs.louisiana.edu/~sxw8045/history.htm

"...Like the Hindus, the Arabs worked freely with irrationals. However they took a backward step in rejecting negative numbers in spite of having learned of them from the Hindus...."

The numbers we have today are actually based on the hindu numericals, 4, 6 and many others. I was amazed when I saw those early numbers, how similar they were.

Look at MIT. The number of Muslim students there is greatly out of proportion to the normal number of Muslims in the US. Look at Silicon Valley. At every international Math Olympics Iran (and South Korea) dominate. Give it twenty-five years and the Muslim world (and India and China and South Korea) will be pumping out the R and D.

The hatred you find on this blog is the fear by some Westerners that their civilization won't be the only scientifically advanced and economically advanced one anymore. So they have to demonize us.

I know a bit about MIT, having sent many students there. I am fully aware of its liberal policy to jump through hoops in order to accept what they deem to be the "disadvantaged" over those brighter students who hail from Andover and Dartmouth and the like. It's an old joke that if you want to be accepted into MIT as an undergraduate you should be a crippled black Muslim lesbian who lives in a cardboard box. (HSB: "We DREAMED of living in cardboard box!") Ignore, then, the proportion of Muslims in the undergrad student body: instead, give me the figures (not some bullshit claim) for the postgrad Muslim population.

The so-called hatred expressed on this blog is of two kinds. There is that which is a reaction to the encroachment of unwanted Islam on the civilised world as a result of the foolishness of liberals, and there is the raw primordial hatred expressed by Muslims who urge the killing of Jews and who relish the absurd notion that at some future time infidels will burn in hell or suffer indescribable torture at the hand of that imaginary arsehole you call Allah. Grow up.

I read your post. So you understand that at one point the Muslim world was advanced scientifically, and now it is not. Similarly can you not see the same thing happening in America? Look at ge graduate programs in maths, science and engineering and they are dominated by Indians, Chinese, Koreans, Iranians, and Pakistanis. America and Western Europe see math and science scores amongst their children lagging ever further behind East Asian scores.
As for anti-semitism no one can compare to the West when it comes to centuries of brutal suppresion of the Jews. Germany, France, Italy, Belgium, the Netherlands and Belgium half the Western World is implicated in the Holocaust. So please don't try to brush as off as anti-semites, we could never compare to the originals.
And why are you telling me to grow up?
It is people like you who accuse us Muslims (and blacks and Asians) of encroaching on your Western countries. Well the only reason we are there are because of Western expansion and colonialism. The Algerians of France are there because of France's occupation of Algeria. Pakistanis are in Britain because of the British Empire and the ties that you bound us to you with (ties that we resisted). Our schools were shut down and we were forced to learn in French and English and Russian and Dutch.

It's hardly a matter of understanding: it's simple knowledge. Some of those ancient Muslims were brilliant fellows (my particular favourite being Jabir), as anyone with a smattering of scientific history will enthusiastically admit. What a pity it all turned to excrement somewhere along the way. If, instead, Islamic logicians had been allowed to flourish we might well have witnessed Islam's much-needed reformation and would not now be living in a world of Islamic monsters and charlatans and wife-beaters and clitoridectomists and history deniers.

Don't be too eager to damn Americans in the manner you suggest. Learn a bit more about the processes of modern education and its risible ways of measuring intellectual ability. For decades I have seen such tests indicate that children whose parents keep their little noses to the grindstone to engage in rote learning score impressively under conditions which foster rewards for such apparent erudition, while parents of a different mentality allow their offspring to develop in other - vital - ways. Time passes, and something remarkable happens. The early high fliers disappear from the scene or find themselves engaged as adults in humdrum occupations requiring attention to detail. Accountancy comes to mind. Meanwhile, many of the typical American children blossom into people of enduring value because their minds have not been chained. They dare to make mistakes. They become captains of industry and trailblazers who took America to pre-eminence in the world. Do you recall Cardinal Newman's words? Moderate your faith in academic testing if you wish to be seen as wise.

You wish to discuss Western anti-semitism? I am happy to accommodate you. It flourished for many centuries in lands where Christianity held sway (see what religion achieves?) and resulted in obscene torture and cruel murder of the Jewish people (can you begin to see why a Jewish homeland is so dear to the Jewish heart?). I do not believe anyone on this site would try to pretend otherwise. Yes, there are still people who should know better who are Jew-haters, covertly or otherwise, but the only religion (using the term loosely) that OFFICIALLY advocates hatred of Jews is Islam. Does that make you feel proud? Certain Serbian gentlemen got into trouble for doing to Muslims what your vile brethren dearly wish to do to Jews and will undoubtedly do so once you have the opportunity while the "caring" world looks on with its hands in its pockets. Gosh, it's an unfair old world, isn't it? Still, I must take comfort from the fact that Israel will blast to hell millions and millions of hateful Muslims once their backs are to the wall.

It is undeniably true that several of the European countries, to a greater extent than America, exploited technologically backward lands and perhaps would wish to continue to do so. See? Had Islam nurtured its brilliant ones instead of smothering them in Koranic fairy tales, Islamic lands might have been spared such exploitation. Sow the wind; reap the whirlwind.

Why did I tell you to grow up? I was addressing Muslims in general. Anybody who believes the astonishing nonsense spouted by your Koran and the stories of magic horses and flights to heaven and birds killing elephants by dropping stones on them and the final day of reckoning and the rewards of paradise needs to grow up, I would suggest.

Officially advocate hatred? How can a group of one billion people with no central leadership officially advocate anything?
The entire concept of speaking to all Muslims is utterly ludicrous. First Westerners demonized each other and led themselves into two world wars. But after the death of 80 million people they realized hey, we're all human after all. But now people like you have decided to demonize Muslims because you no longer are able to demonize the French or Germans or Russians. People like you are unable to live without hating someone else to make you feel better about yourselves.
What strikes me as most amazing about bigoted Westerners such as yourself is your complete lack of faith in Western Civilization. The Western civilization of the past two centuries helped create the concepts of democracy and human rights as well as the basis for modern science. But rather than having faith that this wonderful heritage will flourish with the additional inputs of Asians, Africans, and whoever else you constantly whinge that its doomed.
Well its not. Just as the Communist regimes that dominated Eastern Europe collapsed, I have faith that the next twenty years will show a similar renaissance in the Muslim world (and Africa and South America and South East Asia).
Fifty years ago it was common to say that China and Korea would never go anywhere because there were too many people and their Confucius concept of community would not allow modernity to thrive there, that the people there were doomed to live in Eastern misery. But fifty years later China is the engine of the world, and its universities are thriving. South Korea is a democracy (as are Japan and Taiwan).
And why do you talk of blasting Muslims? I'm trying to speak with you reasonably and you're talking about blowing my up with a nuclear weapon? You are very silly. I have no idea how I found this website but you people are all just too silly.
Go out and make some friends. Do you have any friends? Maybe travel. Stop seething over your keyboard. Its just sad.

Don't talk to me about there being no central leadership. Muslims the world over are controlled in their thinking by your foul book. And stop this nonsense about WWI and II being explicable in terms of demonisation. I do not go through life aiming to hate anybody, but when I see everything I hold dear threatened by a barbaric "religion" I take up the cudgels to defend myself and my heritage. If Muslims only ceased referring to non-Muslims as infidels I might begin to lower my guard, but it is not in Islam's nature ever to do such a thing. Muslims are alien. They are enemies of Western thought. They are enemies of Western art and literature and science. They are parasites. You see an Islamic renaissance during the next 20 years? Why?

I see a global renaissance. Look at how democracy is spreading, how wars are becoming less common, how literacy is decreasing. I think the world now is a much better place than 70 years ago with World War II and all that nationalistic hatred and imperialism and better than 20 years ago when half of Europe was under the yoke of communism.
Things are getting better.
Smile.

Ram old chap,
You seem to be a Muslim of some education!
What makes you cling on to the backward tenets of the mind stunting ,totalitarian claptrap that you call a religion?
You seem to believe that educational progress will eventually lead to a world of peace; based on common sense reason,and yet support a system that would suppress it!
There's a yawning paradox within your argument.
Cut the umbilical nonsense of blind belief and join the world you want.

Beejj spits on muslims in his free time - im sure he spits on people that look like muslims also.

Ah Beej you reawaken forgotten memories.
When I lived in South Africa I read the science notes taken by my then 10yr old son;inwhich the teacher had given an explanation of photosynthesis.
The explanation was ridiculous to the point that it was clear that the teacher did not understand
the process himself.
Enraged, I went up the school and confronted him;giving him a proper explanation.
I remember asking him about the importance of photosynthesis and was astounded that he seemed unaware of its true significance in the world about us.
Bad teachers have a baleful influence on developing minds;and from that point on ,my then wife and I
carefully controlled what he was being taught.
I would like to see a curriculum plan for a madrassa I'm sure it would be a hoot.

HSB, when I consider what has happened in the world of education since my early days I don't know whether to laugh or cry. One thing is certain, though: it gets worse. The only good I can see is that no matter how bad it becomes, the clever kids still manage to go forth to glory. Pity about the lesser mortals ...

You mention photosynthesis, the most astonishing piece of chemistry I have ever encountered and without which we would not exist. I am not a biochemist, so correct me if I am wrong, but the process is achieved in something like 100 individual steps. Astonishing! This leads me to a thought - if God is responsible for everything, and if his/her/its cleverness is enough to create the entire universe, why did he/her/it have to resort to such a tortuous process to synthesise glucose?

An hour ago I was in my Jag and saw one of those signs/messages in the front of a church: "God's love is like an ocean - endless." I would love to say to the buffoon who penned these words,"Let's go for a walk through the world. There are things I want to show you."

I have decided not to write another word on this site about Evolution. What's the point? Half-wits such as our 786 boy actually believe they know more about it than the finest biological scientists on the planet - people of such mammoth intellect I cannot find words sufficient to pay them appropriate homage. Even our dear Sir W, a man I greatly respect, throws up the name of a PHILOSOPHER as one to be taken notice of as he disputes the essential science of it all. Hmm .... would you seek the opinion of a farmer if you desired a worthwhile appraisal of the flight and combat capabilities of an F22?

A lot less than a hundred Beej but nevertheless quite a few.(i was always fascinated by the fact thar chlorophyll has a surprisingly similar structure to haem(from haemoglobin).
The amazing reaction giving us food to eat and oxygen to breathe.
How many Muslims know that?
The world is a place of endless fascination and mystery.
It's only parasitic clerics with their puerile fairy stories that sully science and debate ;with their faith in the highly suspect.

hellosnackbar - what a name!! are you overweight?

"How many Muslims know that?"
you are a racist - dont deny this. if you do you are only lying to yourself - just be open about it - you hate ALL muslims!!! nothing wrong with that - your free to hate whom you wish to hate - so sad that you hate - did someone hate you? lol try not to hate too much you will evolve into a moron with a big head or maybe your already there?

do you consider yourself superior to muslims ? lol
your a moron - sorry to hurt you.
please reply back asap

Hello, wwww. Welcome to the site. First, realize that HSB despises Islam, not all Muslims. Because Islam is not a race, but a fascist ideology, his contempt for Islam is a result of his love for liberty and his sense of fundamental fairness, which Islam continually offends. HSB is a scientist and a master of the English language. He doubtless has many other achievments because gifted people are usually gifted in many areas. Modesty forbids that he corrrect you himself, so I interfere to make this introduction.
Please try to understand why people on this site hate Islam. And if you are going to accuse HSB of hatred, it would be better not to call him a moron or a moron with a big head. It seems hypocritical.

hellosnackbar AKA hsb - so hsb is a scientist and a master of the English language - you would know Bronwyn you have abviously met the person in real life??
I think extroversion-introversion is the word for it??? im an astronaut and I have a excellent understanding of the English language aswell as the German and French language - i bet your getting horny now?? please come to my rescue if some one takes the piss out of me..
does being a scientist exempt hsb from being a RACIST MORON ? dont defend what hsb has stated it is obvious for all that hsb is a racist. So hsb is gifted in many other areas!!! i wonder what other gifts hsb has been blessed with? i wonder if hsb will be reply to me?

Islam continually offends? ive never been offended.. im not a muslim - no problem at all you moron!!
If a jewish moron wants to kill all gentiles (non-jews) are all jewish people killers?
Dont "learn" Islam from extremists - Dont learn the Talmud or try to become Jewish (if they let you join there religion) by learning from Jewish extremists who spit on christians in the so called "holy lands" -

Are you also a racist facist Bronwyn? no need to hide it Bronwyn no ones going to harm you.

Did you hear about the facist racist idiot moron who attacked a Greek Orthodox priest - he thought he was an arab !!! even if the guy was arab why did he target him ? he was pissed of by the recent killings at Fort Hood... just like most of the people on this forum are pissed of - the guy was a soilder aswell - feel sorry for the civilians he is supposed to be "protecting"

- what a moron - racist facist idiots like people on this forum promote actions like this - YOU ARE RESPONSABLE FOR VIOLENCE - A VIOLENT PERSON CANNOT CONTROL EMOTIONS AND WILL ATTACK OR KILL WITHOUT THINKING - you morons
YOU ARE RESPONSABLE FOR VIOLENCE I HOPE YOU PROUD OF THIS ??

some advise for you morons go and kill an indian ?? lol dik heads

did you really have to say :

"An hour ago I was in my Jag" ?? did you really have to say that - is your head stuck up your ass? does taking the piss out of muslims make you think you are superior? bet you feel good in your Jag - lol dik head - racist facist bald headed moron...

Ram...
If muslims were that good, then I believe Iran has gone to the moon in the 1923! Wow!
Remember that many of those muslims are not even interested in advancement; Many of them will become one of those shiekhs who claim that there is a cure for HIV in fly's wings.

Ram; There is also the problem that islam consider science a big fat demon; All islamic countries still live under superstition and local folklore and myth! Stoning witches; Saying that X person put a spell on him so he cheated... marrying kids.

So; How can islam advance when science is extremely discouraged in islam?

Wait twenty-five years and Iran and Turkey and Pakistan (if we manage not to nuke ourselves) will.
Iran's Universities turn out post-grads that are snapped up by MIT, the Max Plank Institute and the French CNFR.
Interestingly Iran's science universities and science faculties have the highest ratio of women in the world, even higher than in Nordic countries. You should attend a Math Olympics and see Iranians (and sometimes South Koreans) annhilate the competiton from other countries.

I love when someone thinks they are right.

Check China, Japan instead of Iran.

Besides, it is not going to happen, like I said.... Islam abhors science

Necrowulf, don't you know that the prophet of Islam was the first into space? How do we know? Because he said so.

And not a bad achievement either..........for a prophet with a brain comprised entirely of stool.

You've read WAY too much into what I have said. I agree with alot of what you say about Islam and the Koran. But many Muslims take ONLY the good from it. And there are some. A majority I pray. Just as if all Christian were to follow literal interpretations of the Holy Bible (Old Testament), those who don't follow God, but follow Satan should be destroyed. You don't see my fellow Christians going jihad on non believers/infidels. How many times have infidels insulted Jesus? Most recently Larry David of Seinfeld. You don't see Christians issuing a fatwa on him. Any spirituality that fosters love and tolerance to others is good in my book. They may not see heaven as I know it, but we'll all meet their maker one day.

I wish I could see the good you speak of in Islam, but what I see is "moderate" Muslims treating their women exactly as required by their "culture", Muslims asking for special treatment, prayer rooms in airports, schools and workplaces, for example. Honor killings for Muslims that become too "westernized" or become apostate, and many other examples of "ordinary" Muslims failing to assimilate into their host countries. I don't see any Christians going jihad on anyone these days. And I agree, all too many infidels are anti-Semitic, because they believe Islamic propaganda that declares they are occupiers, oppressors, and killers of innocent civilians. And no, Christians don't issue fatwas, that's a Muslim invention. It's funny you mention jihad and fatwa in those contexts, does that say something about your thinking? I agree that any spirituality that fosters love and tolerance is good, but Islam contains far too much that promotes violence and hate, and your jihads and fatwas that promote violence, are good examples of that. The best example of the violence inherent in Islam is the rule that demands that apostates be killed. Countries kill traitors, armies kill deserters, Islam is the only religion that kills it's members that try to leave, what does that make it?

The Confederacy had a lot of moderates. It did not end the issue of slavery until AFTER the war had been lost.

Political Islam IS at war against us. Until the issues that are at the root cause of the war are cleared up, people will defend their side. A lot of good southerners died defending slavery. We cannot expect others to behave differently. It is human nature.

The CIA murdered Iran's democratic government in the 1950s and imposed a brutal Shah on Iran. America supported every dictator in Pakistani and Turkish history to fight Communism while disrupting civil society in those nations. The United States armed and trained militias to destroy Afghanistan's Middle Class in the 1980s to undo Soviet influence. America backs the Saudi regime that everyone loathes just to protect oil.
America has invaded so many Muslim countries, usually for oil. When has any Muslim country invaded America? The 9-11 bombers were individual monsters who acted by themselves and are burning in hell now (probably surrounded by 72 ugly demon sluts lol).
It was a Muslim country that was the first to recognize American Independence ( Morocco).
America has invaded Muslims (and African, and South American, and Central American, and South East Asian Countries for a century).
Clearly America is the most aggressive nation in the history of the world. In 200 plus years of independence it has been at war every other year of its existence. In the last 100 years American solders have been constantly occupying one corner of the world or another.
Muslim countries on the other hand have by and large not invaded each other for the past two hundred years.
Compare that to Europe with World War I and World War II and the Cold War between Russia (USSR) and the US that nearly killed us all.
You have to admit that in the past 200 years Western countries have been the aggressors and have conquered every part of the globe. America, Russia, UK and France still have enough nukes to murder all of humanity.
So I don't get this Islamic aggression you're talking about. That died 400 years ago.

America provided training and guns for the people who could not defend the onslaught of the russian trained militia. America hasn't extract one single drop of oil from either Afghanistan or Iraq; Neither Somalia! It defends the islamic supremacism of Saudi Arabia only because we actually need
1. some allies, even though we know they will backstab us.
2. Because without Saudi Arabia, the world would stop...yes, even your beloved muslim countries! Saudi Arabia can't even process the crude oil!

South American? America does not invade, it comes if X country asks for aid. Or when the situation is dire. But, what?! South America?! Colombia? They asked America's help...

"... Muslim countries on the other hand have by and large not invaded each other for the past two hundred years...."

Cyprus? Armenia genocide? Does that even right a bell? What about the slave trade that still occurs on today's muslim world?

Remember, Islam has killed more people than any world war or western genocide combined!

Islamic agression still goes on, Iran against Israel is a prime example, or even Pakistan wanting to steal more land from India!

I World War II Germans killed 6 million Jews. Most estimates for the total deaths in World War II are from 62 to 78 million. That was in the past seventy years.
Please show me similar numbers of deaths by Muslims.
The Wars between India and Pakistan have seen less then a twenty thousand actual deaths from war. The Turkish invasion of Cyprus (and Greek attacks on Turkish civilians) adds up to maybe five thousand deaths, if I'm being extremely liberal. 3,000 Israelis have died in the past 10 years. I'm not seeing numbers that add up.
You should learn about America and the CIA's involvement in Central America, and the role American backed militias have played in destroying civil society in many of those countires (ironically creating the large Hispanic immigration that America is now facing).
I'm not claiming Muslims are perfect. I am from Pakistan and I think my country is the biggest cause of instability in the world. I wish we Pakistanis could just chill and stop bothering Indians, and Afghans, and just get our stuff in order. I don't hate the West. I just don't understand why the West should hate us when we worked with the West to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan. We helped at great cost to our civil society and the West just walked away. Only to return to back one dictator after another while ignoring us every time we manage to get a civilian democratically elected as our head of state.

"Jihad destroyed a Christian Middle East and a Christian North Africa. Soon it was the fate of the Persian Zoroastrian and the Hindu to be the victims of jihad. The history of political Islam is the destruction of Christianity in the Middle East, Egypt, Turkey and North Africa. Half of Christianity was lost. Before Islam, North Africa was the southern part of Europe (part of the Roman Empire). Around 60 million Christians were slaughtered during the jihadic conquest. Half of the glorious Hindu civilization was annihilated and 80 million Hindus killed. The first Western Buddhists were the Greeks descended from Alexander the Great's army in what is now Afghanistan. Jihad destroyed all of Buddhism along the silk route. About 10 million Buddhists died. The conquest of Buddhism is the practical result of pacifism. Zoroastrianism was eliminated from Persia. The Jews became permanent dhimmis throughout Islam. In Africa over 120 million Christians and animists have died over the last 1400 years of jihad. Approximately 270 million nonbelievers died over the last 1400 years for the glory of political Islam. These are the Tears of Jihad which are not taught in any school." - Bill Warner of the Center for the Study of Political Islam:



"... I just don't understand why the West should hate us when we worked with the West to defeat the Soviet Union in Afghanistan..."

No, of course not, why should we hate islam? Right? I mean, there is no death threats for critics of islam, no no! We can make cartoons of islam, pictures of mohammed, pee on the quran, even blaspheme islam without any problems whatsoever! There is no OIc trying to push sharia law worldwide against criticism of islam. There are no muslims trying to impose sharia, there are no terrorists, there are no honour killings, and evidently woman have much more rights in islam than in the west! Wow, they can marry 5 dudes, and get twice more than a man! seriously! Wow...islam!

yes I'm being sarcastic.

As for your claim about not taking Iraqu oil, from today Wall Street Journal:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB125741092983330...

"Iraq Awards West Qurna-1 Oil Field to Exxon, Shell"

Check which companies were competing. Besides, that was an award given after competing companies, so, the chances were that it could have even been a Mexican company instead of Exxon!

so if the newspapers or cops tell the truth, it is "demonizing"?? earth to police and media----> MUSLIMS don't need anything to DEMONIZE them------ they are showing it everyday, in every way by their words and deeds.

not loyal to USA? GTFO
not ISLAMIC enough here? GTFO
can't abide the laws here? GTFO
go live under SHARIA in any of 22 shitholes that have your laws and customs

There are a lot of positive things to say about black muz. They clean up their neighborhood, don't allow drugs or druggie activity, emphasize family, educate their kids, clean up their act, and try to act with civility. Sure, they hate whitey, but who doesn't? Maybe, some day they'll even pull their heads out of their asses and "get it"......like, it's up to you what kind of life you have and person you are if you work hard for it, and not rely on whitey giving it to you. Can't get any respect whining for everything like a bitch. They don't get much respect from middle east muz either. They sure don't "hang out", and Dearborn (just outside Detroit) is the biggest collection of M/E muz outside the M/E.