Islam and the Irrelevant Peaceful Majority

I believe that. There are many "moderate" muz that live in daily fear, and would admit it if they took a good look at themselves. Probably much more so now. Like telling a "black joke" where the guy telling looks over both shoulders first, then begins the joke. Islam is the #1 largest instrument of repression that the world has ever seen. It does more to stifle human progress and achievement than ANYthing ever before seen by mankind...that's a fact of life. Look around. Every muz country in the world not blessed with vast pools of oil are shitholes. Any country that has gone from whatever religion they were before to islam is, or is well on it's way, to becoming a shithole. The analysers are now saying that the zealot muz kill muz in numbers to "maintain their relevancy and power" No criticism is allowed...that means death. So, according to some, islam has been run away with by the lunatics....like our political parties. There are also "moderate" muz that want islam to "evolve" and get away from the violence thing...and even delete it from the koran and hadiths. There are some that want to modify shariah too. None of that will ever happen until there has been so much horror and blood, followed by FORCED education and westernization, that it will be a while before the killing starts again. The West is slowly arising to the task, muz are being "addressed" more often rather than appeased. I just hope it is timely enough and forcefull enough to get their attention. I'd rather they accept the fact that islam sucks then blood and slaughter to make the point. Islam is like the people that pick their nose and eat it. Maybe they like it but it's not my cup of tea, and I sure don't need to watch them do it. They can keep that crap to themselves.

Tonto, I will take you to task over two comments there.

Your assumption about sh*t-holes is incorrect in many ways. It appears to be on the basis that a lot of people incorrectly assume and forget. Because most Muslim countries are in poor developing countries, it is wrongly assumed that these countries are like this because of Islam or the Muslims themselves. This forgets that only half of the developing world are in fact Muslim, the rest are not and they are in exactly the same problems, level of corruption, poverty, illiteracy etc.

To add to that, I live in a very nice country were in fact the country is now putting limits on the great number of western foreigners whom want to (I guess like me to a degree) live here and enjoy the life and lifestyle. Tens of thousands of mostly French nationals have basically moved here, either in retirement or to invest and justify the right to live. Morocco is by all means not a sh*t-hole and is not a producer of oil. Now, unlike its neighbour - Algeria, which in many aspects has become a sh*t-hole, Morocco cannot claim to have much of any wealth other than phosphate and tourism. Algeria has oil and shares a great deal of cultural and other similarities to Morocco but that country is poor compared to here. Thus, to get to the point, you can have oil and be a sh*t-hole - Nigeria being the absolute best example, with Algreria coming in a close second.

The second is your overall generalisation that was obviously intended to be insulting, rather like your "black joke" excuse. Saying "Islam is".... like so many people, or "Muslims are.... " has to be said either 100 per cent accurately or not at all. You have done neither. Most Muslims do not seek "blood and slaughter", nor does the faith itself. As for picking noses, there is a common Arabic saying that refers to that particular habit as being very much a "dirty western habit", like not washing enough (pointing out that Muslims go out of their way to clean themselves at least 5 times a day and consider westerners to be more than often not serious about personal hygiene).

Thus getting to the point, I know that the comments on both sides to be over-exagerations and xenophobic generalizations that, if anything, is unbecoming.

OK, let me take a slightly different tack. The battle we see in the world is between "progress" or "evolution" versus "stagnation". What I see is that most progress in the world has come from the west....or more correctly, western thought born from the concept of freedom with no actual limits. The fountainhead for this thought has been the US. For the last 100 years, the US has been leading the world further from the dark ages, in thought, technology, and standard of living. You can accept that or not. It matters not at all to this discussion. It's a fact, none the less. For the middle class, worldwide, and even the poorest class, world wide, there is no better place to be. In many countries, the standard of living for the poorest of the American middle class can only be matched by the very richest. And there it is.
You may live in a very nice place, but you live so well because your comparative wealth takes advantage of their comparative poverty. Why would they limit foreign immigration? Couple reasons. It's an insult that rich foreigners would come and see the native residents as "servants", maids, and curio makers. The realization of how natives are perceived, and the perception that they are being taken advantage of....can really piss certain segments of a given population right off. Perhaps the concepts imported with immigrating foreigners upsets the local government. Either way, and I'm sure there are many other possible reasons, progress is happening because of the influx and it make some people uncomfortable.
Islam is about total control, whereas many non-muz countries are about a different kind of control....but you can certainly bet that the ruling class of elites are very much against the influx of too much foreign influence. Islam is just the most violent and vociferous. Islam will slaughter piles of it's own to make the point about "who is boss". Note that "Moderate", or "progressive" muz are 8 TIMES more likely to be violently targeted by jihadi types than anyone else in the world. Homosexuals, girls that don't want to be "controlled", honor killings, mosque bombings....all that crap. What's that about? Evolution vs. Stagnation. Any repressive system, any stagnating society (islamic or otherwise) or any society that takes and controls the basic freedoms that man is naturally born with either is a shithole or has an inside track into becoming one. Name any country in the world that people daily risk their lives to enter besides the US....I need a laugh today. Call me an arrogant asshole if you want. That's the facts as I see them. Islam is the greatest instrument of repression the world has ever seen...and that means internally as well as externally. The US scares islam because the US is PROGRESS and manifest social evolution. Israel is an outpost of freedom, social evolution and progress. Both represent a blatant example of where many of the people in emerging nations would like to be. Both are seen as "invasive" to the leading elites of repressed and subdued islamic areas of the world. Moderate muz want to get there and islamic state elites and rulers see that as a threat to their authority.....and that's why you see them mobilizing against progress. That's why imams and mullahs and ayatollahs are screaming war and invective from their pulpits. They've already lost and are in too much denial to admit it. The question is, how much blood will be spilled before they are beaten enough to quit. Maybe all this is necessary. The Catholic churches...in several persona....indulged in lots of butchery to stamp out "heresy". Too bad, since it's all bullshit.
Exaggerating? I think not. My society says I can believe whatever I want and can voice that opinion. How many other countries guarantee that right by constitutional law? If they do, they learned it from us.

Apart from the fact that I disagree with almost everything you say there, I will point out two very incorrect assumptions on your part.

You talk about the advantages and views of foreigners here in a way that obviously tells me that your making it up and has no basis in any fact. It in fact shows that if anything, your the one who thinks of locals as "natives". I find most of your item to smack of a form of naive superiority complexe. You have also assumed my own reasons for enjoying my life here. The Moroccan authorities are not only in charge, are given and rightly demand respect from foreigners but excercise that respect as well. Though there are those arrogant "wannabe colonialists" here, they are in fact a minority. The majority of the foreigners chosing to retire, work or settle here come for the culture, lifestyle and fun of a country with breathtaking landscapes, brilliant climate, foods, cultural diversity and moderate but sincere take on religous faith. The Casablanca nightlife is not so great and the westerners do not live there, or in the capital Rabat, but all the tourist areas, resorts or in the breadthtaking Atlas Mountains, like I do - just outside of the historic, heritage protected Marrakech.

The second blatant error in your assumptions is the typical agenda-based "Islam is....." .You have fallen for the Spencer-based rubbish that implies that all the Muslm World is run by radical Ayatollahs and Imams and that all view the principles of Islam like OBL. As long as you follow that sort of view, you have failed in any attempt to understand the reality on the ground.

"It had long been realized that the only secure basis for oligarchy is collectivism. Wealth and privilege are most easily defended when they are possessed jointly. The so-called "abolition of private property"...meant in effect the concentration of property in far fewer hands than before... It had always been assumed that if the Capitalist Class were expropriated Socialism must follow; and unquestionably the Capitalists had been expropriated. Factories, mines, land, houses, transport, everything had been taken away from them; and since these things were no longer private property it followed that they must be public property. Ingsoc (Socialist Principles of Oceania), which grew out of the earlier Socialist movement and inherited its phraseology, has in fact carried out the main item in the Socialist program with the result; foreseen and intended beforehand, that economic inequality has been made permanent." George Orwell, 1984

Both Marxism and Political Islam are based on collectivization of individuals under totalitarian government power.

"The individual is only a cell...power is collective. The individual only has power in so far that he ceases to be an individual... If he can make complete utter submission; if he can escape from his identity; if he cam merge himself in the Party so that he is the Party, then he is all powerful and immortal... Can you not understand that the death of the individual is not death; the Party is immortal... You are imagining that there is something called human nature which will be outraged by what we do, and will turn against us; but we create human nature... You are rotting away. You are falling to pieces. What are you? A bag of filth... We are not content with negative obedience... We do not destroy the heretic...we convert him; we capture his inner mind... we bring him over to our side...
We shall crush you down to the point from which there is no coming back... Never again will you be
capable of ordinary human feeling; everything will be dead inside you... You will be hollow. We shall squeeze you empty and then we shall fill you with ourselves." George Orwell, 1984

Substitute either "Marxist Party" or "Islamist Party" for "the Party."

"The Party seeks power entirely for its own sake. We are not interested in the good of others... We are different from all the oligarchies of the past in that we know what we're doing... Power is not a means, it is an end... the object of power is power... always there will be the intoxication of power...
We are the Priests of Power." George Orwell, 1984

It matters little to the serfs if they labor and squirm under the heels of Marxist Priests of Power or Islamist Imams of Power.

solkhar: "Because most Muslim countries are in poor developing countries, it is wrongly assumed that these countries are like this because of Islam or the Muslims themselves. This forgets that only half of the developing world are in fact Muslim, the rest are not and they are in exactly the same problems, level of corruption, poverty, illiteracy etc."

The shit-holes of the world are nations where people suffer under totalitarian rule; and in today's world this means either Marxist or Islamist rule. This should come as no surprise to anyone because both Marxism and Political Islam have many things in common which sap the individual’s creativity and the fruits of creative labor. Marxism is a religion posing as political ideology, while Islam is political ideology posing as religion. Both Marxism and Political Islam deny that all individuals are created equal before law. Both Marxism and Political Islam legally destroy the individual's sacred rights to life, liberty and pursuit of happiness (private property honestly earned through labor). Both Marxism and Islam derive unjust political power without the informed consent of the governed; i.e.: both are tyrannical oligarchies.

People will always be poor; they will always live in shit-holes when they are unequal to their superiors in the Marxist or Islamist ruling classes - they are simply more equal. People will always be poor when Marxist or Islamist government steals the individual's sacred right to property honestly earned through labor, and their sacred liberty. People will always be poor when their governing elite derives political power without their informed consent.

Tyranny = Poverty

You have a really nice blog!! I loved to visit it and will come back often. Shame the recent news! :(

It is unbecoming of me to say so, perhaps, but I wrote about this very thing on this site God knows how long ago. "And there is no new thing under the sun" ........! Ecclesiates? Does anyone recall my words about "that Muslim woman with her brood in the supermarket ...."? It tells all. Does anyone remember my warnings that the "moderate" Muslim is a cancer in remission? Never ignore the fearful and remorseless danger that any follower of Mohammed represents, no matter how benign he or she might appear down at the shops or picking up the kids from school. They are programmed from birth to be your nemesis. They care nothing for your beliefs. They have no respect for anything you hold dear. They insinuate themselves into your society to destroy it. Forget it at your peril.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah!

You are losing your imposed war in Afghanistan as you have been lost in Iraq. So concentrate on your economy and never dare another muslim country ever or else tell your governments to clear out more land in your cities , .................in order to build more grave yards.

I couldn't agree with you more. An excellent idea! Why lives of humans should be sacrificed to protect Muslims and to attempt the impossible - to bring democracy to Islamic lands - is beyond belief. Yes, we should pull out immediately and leave the locals to hone their skills at killing each other in even greater numbers. While we are about it, we might contemplate ceasing all our financial aid (billions of dollars' worth) to keep useless Muslims from starvation. Agreed?

THese funny westerners , they have forgotten counting. They count their millions of murders and killings as hundreds and count thousands of klllings done by muslim dictators who we also do dislike as millions. They say that they kill for the noble cause where as they are the dirty beings and actually these old fools who are talking in this forum pollute their young ones with their dirty ideologies. I know now why there are so many bastards in the west.

No, Wake Up, we have not "forgotten counting". Every year we count out billions of dollars to support impoverished Muslim countries. Without us, you'd starve. Hell, this simple truth must really stick in your guts. Come, Wake Up, try to be a little more mature when you write to us. You are an embarrassment to yourself, and do your cause not an ounce of good.

" THese funny westerners "

Those funny westerners INVENTED the very computer you're using now.

You've got electric power, TV, internet, cars, bikes, vaccines, air travel
and ALL other modern things thanks to "those funny westerners".

Since muslims are a great ZERO, you really should apologize.



" pollute their young ones with their dirty ideologies. I know now why there are so many bastards in the west."

The only DIRTY ideology is ISLAM.
Your hero, ADOLF HITLER, was a bastard therefore you should be more careful with your words.

By the way, WHO was Mohammad's REAL father ?
Habib, one of the the caravan's camel or Nabih, the goat?
Or maybe Hasan, the Nubian slave ?

Step outside that Koranic forest and view the trees,denial coma.
There are bastards in the west to be sure;yet funnily enough our lowest bastard drunk requires genuflection from the most esteemed Muslim.
Ridiculous person.

These are truly the Jews who have bastardized the west. Hitler was truly right to see this suffering of mankind. He warned the west of the disease which is called a Jew but the foolish Britishers and the naughty US didn't listen to him. Come out of this foul hope that your army who pisses in their own pants can defeat the muslims ever.

" These are truly the Jews who have bastardized the west"

Yes, we did bastardize the world with Marc Chagall, Albert Einstein,
Franz Kafka, Mahler, Mendelssohn, Rita Hayworth, Lauren Baccal,
the "Three Stooges", Charles Chaplin ...

Hitler did what he did out of ENVY.

As we're used to say here in Brazil, " THE ENVY KILLS ".

You feel the SAME WAY as Hitler once did.

How come the Jewish People with so few could contribute with so many achievements ?

How come the muslim plague with so many couldn't ?

WHO is the DISEASE and WHO is the CURE ?

To you, the sad fact remains : JEWS ARE SUPERIOR. Period.

Not superior in a racial manner, since Jews aren't a "race" nor
muslims are,by the way, but from a performance ratio basis.

Jews were, are and always will be more successful than muslims.

Go to the nearest mirror and you're gonna see a NEANDERTHAL,
a rude, primitive, lewd and bloodthirsty excuse for human being.

"Hitler was truly right to see this suffering of mankind"

True colors shown...

As you say John the "true colours"of the brain damaged!
Our chum "wakes up"into his own mental nightmare!

Reality is an elegant retort to your nonsense. You have been repeatedly defeated by US forces. Many areas of Iraq were treated to working electricity and power systems grace of the US army and US dollars. You were saved from internecine bullets because the US forced you to stop killing each other and trained your police. It was a tough job because Muslim hatred for the Muslim is great;the desire of Muslims to annihilate each other is strong.
There are numerous accurate reports and film footage of Muslim "fighters" using little children and women to hide behind during battle. Your practice of using these human shields is below cowardly.
I assume that your closing line is meant as a battle boast. It is pathetic. Hitler lost, remember? You will lose too. Long before your army loses, the destruction of the Muslim people who are victims of thugs like you, will continue. Those who really care for the Muslim peoples, and God knows they are few because Muslims bite off the hand that helps them, hope that they will rise up with wisdom and put off the petty killers who will use them for their own ends. People like you kill and spread hate and stupidly allow their leaders to pocket billions of dollars meant for the reconstruction of Muslim lives.

The enemy of Muslims is not Israel. Israel is the tremendous symbol of the effectiveness of democracy and reason and the grace of God against unreasoning hatred and pitiless violence. 1.6 billion Muslims. 15 million Jews and you cannot defeat them. Makes you think, doesn't it?

I'm not targetting or picking on you there but just want to clarify a point. It is not that 1.6 billion vs 15 million Jews. As pointed out time and time again, the Muslim world is not against Jews and thus you never watched the Muslim world take up war against Israel. Thus it was never that entire Muslim vs Israel in any conflict. The other factor is also that it was not just Egypt/Syria/Palestine vs Israel but to a degree it has always been those neighbouring countries vs Israel (and the US threatening to back them up).

Rememer, personally, I accept Israel, it's right to exist AND to defend itself against agression - as much as I think any country has that right. I have no problems with Jews, I have pointed out that I have some very close Jewish friends and I am in a country that has a strong Jewish heritage and recognises that - not to mention specific Jewish tourism.

For me, "wake up" is just ranting the typical ignorance that I see all the time, someone who can only listen to his own local media or communication network that is based on propoganda and add to that the bigotry and agenda of particular groups. Thus, and sorry for now obviously picking on you, he is showing some of the blatantly ignorant rantings of propoganda that you have shown to me. Now having said that, he comes from a bigotted and mostly illiterate radicalised society (Pakistan), what is your excuse?

Astonishing stuff, Solkhar. According to you, until such time as the entire Islamic world goes to war with Israel we may rest assured that the Islamic world is not against the Jews. Hmm ...... there might be a few logistical problems for, say Indonesia to be part of the combined action, while a few African countries might face certain difficulties, too. But until such an unlikely event comes to pass we may confidently take you at your word. Yeah, right.

I did not say that at all Beejj, that is your words, not mine.

All I did was point out that the conflict with Israel and anti-Semiticism amongst Musilm and Muslim nations is not total. That historical aggression towards the State of Israel was by only a few nations, the economic, cultural and political boycotting of Israel was certainly more widespread under the banner of protest over Palestine and that most of that was in fact not religous but pan-Arab politics.

Also, as I have now said on a number of threads, radicals will claim anything to gain route support and thus they joined the anti-Israel rhetoric for increased support from Arab nationalists and they turned into direct anti-Semiticism.

In reality, the average Muslim does give a damn about Israel or who or what is a Jew, they hear the rhetoric but they also hear others and if it does not affect them feeding their children, it is not really important. My point still makes sense though, much of these ignorants have only limited access to education and sound quality dissemenation of information - mostly get their news, stories and opinions from these radical clerics via madrassas and mosques. So to some degree we can understand them getting the information wrong - so what is excuse of so many in the West getting the facts, subject wrong?

I have a few questions for you Solkhar:
Are you well known in Islamic circles?
Are you a convert to Islam?;and if so what motivated your conversion?
Do you have enemies in the Islamic world?;and if so have you ever been threatened by your more zealous
coreligionists?
Could you give us the bones of a more sensible agenda for your less talented coreligionists.
You seem to be the man to reform the religion of peace!
Perhaps as some itinerate Imam;(the so called Islamic scholar Zakir Naik would be no competition)

Thanks for the questions, I will not really say much as this is not my blog and I do not want to disrespect John. So I will make my answers very brief which may not give the result you want and any follow-up questions - should be with John's OK.

Am I known in Islamic circles? Blogs - yes, but under another name, 3 french-language chat-communities and 2 in English. In my own name, only through my work and the cafe circles I hang out in. My views are known and clear.

Does it go down well? Mixed, both extreme in either way.

Death threats? Yes to my username which is rather a waste, only once many years ago and I was the subject of a letter-bomb and I have scars to remind me of how dangerous radicals are. I have also had death threats from non-Muslims.

Convert. Yes, age 17. Why, My own views on originality of holy texts, definition of what makes a prophet are the main two reasons. I wish to point out that subject of religous belief for me is a matter of personal faith and your dedication to that faith, nothing more or less. I do not expect or ask that people support, accept or understand my faith, I only expect people to respect that I do, as I respect other's views.

Again, out of respect and appreciation to the blog-owner, I will not go futher than that or continue more.

Oh,didn't you know,Beejj,most of the lunate inspired purely love Jews!
It's just a few bad apples.
Safe for them to holiday in Morocco,though,apparently.
It's all rainbows and hand holding "and I think to myself,what a wonderful world".

We lost in Iraq? Last I recall the surge was overwhelmingly successful...

Noticed how the MSM has never had anything decent to say about the efforts of coalition forces in the Middle East,Infidelesto?
Funny that.
Iraq was an outstanding success compared to Afghanistan.
It will be interesting to see how the MSM reports golden child and media darling Obama's handling of the current war.
My bet is that they will mostly ignore it.

Umm! You call it success.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/du...

LOL, your right, Infidelstro, this one really needs to take a breadth, he is starting to sound very agenda-driven and like some on this site have been reading to many radical websites and not enough real information.

LOL,you lying sycophantic bullshit artist

was that in reply to me or that "wake up guy"?

I would like you people to remain ten more years in Afghanistan and see your empire ruining on this very planet. I gave you a sound piece of advice but it is you who are destroying your country. Any way go ahead. Afghanistan was not a develped country will remain undeveloped. War doesn't affect Afghanistan because it is in their nature to fight. It is you who are going to be harmed and already your economy is starting to detoriate. Wait and see. What to me.

" War doesn't affect Afghanistan because it is in their nature to fight "

Nope. War can't affect a barren desert, since Afghanistan isn't a proper
country as we are used to see in Europe and South America.
Afghanistan is a no-man's land, a lawless land, no better than Somalia.

What both have in common ?

ISLAM.

" been reading to many radical websites and not enough real information "

And I assume that YOU have "real information" and isn't a "radical".

Do you honestly expect that ANYONE will believe that ?
wake up:



" in order to build more grave yards."

Maybe you prefer the mass graves filled with THOUSANDS of Shia killed by Saddam Hussein.



" never dare another muslim country ever "

Muslims doesn't grasp the concept of "countries". They have TRIBES.
Primitive people doesn't understand what STATE or COUNTRY are.


"wake up" ?
That's what I've said to your mother this morning.

Salient distinction,Jewhawk:
"Muslims doesn't grasp the concept of "countries". They have TRIBES.
Primitive people doesn't understand what STATE or COUNTRY are."

" "wake up" ?
That's what I've said to your mother this morning.":

That was uncalled for,Jewhawk.You have upset an entire Hell's Angels chapter;each of whom thought said mother's "love" true and exclusive.
Shame,Jewhawk,shame.

And go wake up your mom. She is sleeping with dogs.

Oh you Jew hypocrite. Tell this thing to your Bush who is the ex president now. He has killed millions in his business pursiuit in Iraq. And don't forget the many millions you Americans have killed in other countries. Read history son. Saddam was just an excuse. He was a dictator but a child dictator. Bush and other American presidents are Stalins. You like to point out muslim dictators because they are muslims. Ridiculous liars. Hitler did right to you people. You hypocrites.

Yes, Goebells said something similar about unter-menschen and the world rallied against such hatred and disgusting concepts and excuses for bigotry.

As Sir W pointed out to you, Muslims were avid supporters of Goebbels and the gang and their "hatred and disgusting concepts and excuses for bigotry" during the reign of the Nazis, so don't claim that followers of your prophet rallied against Nazism. By the way, can you see a parallel between "untermenschen" and "infidels"?

Beejj, making up history and mass over-exagerations or generalizations does not change facts.

The Brotherhood supported the Nazis, hoping that it would give them an independant state, just like some of the Indian independance movement, mostly those from what is now West Bengal supported Japan and helped in war-crimes. At the same time, Muslims in the Maghbreb were hiding Jews, the then Sultan Mohammed (later King Mohammed V) gave fake IDs to Moroccan Jews to avoid deportation and death - his name now being on the wall of heros to Judaism. Albanian Muslims hid Jews and so on and so forth. Pathetic generalizations are just that and do not warrent anything other than pity.

I agree with you Solkhar, so please stop doing it. You would have us believe that Balkan Muslims volunteered to enlist in the Wehrmacht and Waffen SS because of sensitivity to the situation in the Middle East!! Do you think we are THAT gullible? And you ignore the raw hatred al-Husseini felt for the Jews and his wish to eradicate them, asking us to think that his going cap in hand to Hitler had nothing to do with it. But let us suppose you are correct in what you wrote. What kind of people, in order to deal with the troubles brewing in Palestine, would make overtures to the Nazi hierarchy? Am I being silly when I think they did so because they approved of the Nazis' bestial treatment of Jews since 1933?

Those Muslims in the Balkans chose, like otheres such as the Croats, to go the wrong way and they were condemned for it as they should have. If you think that is the general case with all of Islam and Muslims, then your very much mistaken, do I blame all Catholics for the Croat behavior and the blind eye even by the Vatican?

We seem to be getting closer to agreement, but I would ask you to explain exactly what you mean when you wrote. "The Brotherhood supported the Nazis, hoping it would give them an independent state ...."

The comment is based on the issue of Pan-Arab Nationalism that really started being organised and in a coordinated effort in the late 1920s. The attempts to unify Arabs under a single banner has always been difficult, mostly because of tribalism and loyalties to certain clans, nobility and religous groupings. The closest thing to mutually recognised centres have been the main Islamic Universities and of course the holy cities of Mecca, Medina and Al Qods (Jerusalem).

Thus, when various organisations failed, the Brotherhood had success because it was both a political estabilishment and based on religous conservatism, which in turn gained the support and participation of clerics and institutional leaders. Having said that, it is still a political grouping first and that is where, IMHO, it fails. As I stated in another comment, you can modify your politics to match your faith, but you should not modify your faith to match your politics - which they did, still do and so does all radical political groups in the Muslim World.

Back to the Brotherhood, wiki explains its history well enough, created in 1928 by Hassan el Banna (not Eric Banna's grandfather as a friend of mine once joked).

What is not clearly stated and you have to read some intersting history books to get the full picture is that the organisation gained popularity because it targetted the conservative faithful for the purpose of pan-Arab nationalism. That nationalism was apposed to foreign rule and interferance as well as avoiding western secular law.

In the 1930's when Natinoal Socialism arose, there was another factor that the Brotherhood jumped on, the increasing pressure and obvious British support for a Jewish State in the Palestinian territories whilst at the same time denying the same for the Arabs there. The Brotherhood combined that with the British and French demanding secular copies of their style of government in any territories with semi-autonomous rule, or puppet heads of state.

Thus, the leadership of the Brotherhood chose to support the Nazis because of three factors - one, the Nazis stated that they would support any Muslim countries that supported them as totally independant, they would certainly appose a Jewish State and three, they would force compensation from the subjegated French and British governments after an Axis Victory.

The anti-Jewishness, like today, was part of the political-process of stirring up anti-Semiticism and fears of foreign backstabbing etc, to fulfill political goals. We should ask the question of why most past Muslim governments, kingdoms etc had reasonable relations with Jews until only now? Why did not the anti-Jewish rhetoric and slaughter not happen always from day one? As I have said a few times, Jews simply had it better in the Muslim World than in most cases in the Christian one until the industrial revolution. The reason is simply the Jewish State and its forced creation by colonial powers at the expense of pan-Arab nationalism. Remembering that the Brotherhood is based on an obvious religous platform, its domination by radical and conservative clerics will always make any rhetoric from them take a religous edge. Go to any ultra-orthodox Christian or Jewish political party and God/Jehovah is mentioned also constantly and as the basis for decisions that are obviously political platforms only.

Cheers, hoep that was understandable - I think I am pressing my English to the max here.

But many Muslims supported the Nazis during WWII, http://christianactionforisrael.org/medigest/ma...
and deny the Holocaust today.

SirWilhelm,

Absolutely, though out of sheer statistics I do not know if many is the right way of putting it. Without defending them at all, but rather to explain, they were not supporting Nazism but were joining a side that offered them independance from the British & French colonial powers. Rather like how the PLO supported Saddam Hussein in the First Gulf War or the mostly communist Bengalis supported Japan in the Second World War. The majority of those Arabs, which was in fact part of th fledgeling Brotherhood were Arab Nationalists and were already at conflict with Zionist movements.

That plus the creation of the State of Israel by force and politics was the spark that really made Pan-Arab Nationalism a political force and it sucked in those clerics willing to hypocritically review their religous beliefs to get in their favour. Iran is doing the same, ignoring real Islamic principles for political posturing to the political-Arab world's anti-semiticism.

Either way it was, is and will continue to be if anything an example of how foolish they are and how they have sold themselves and their faith to political BS.

So, back to your point, yes JH is as bad as Goebells and the worst of Arab-Nationalists in his and thier bigoted and disgusting language-for-agendas.

"Two millennia after the Jewish diaspora, the modern Zionist movement, beginning in the late 19th century, was mainly founded by secular Jews, largely as a response by European Jewry to antisemitism across Europe, especially in Russia.[4] " as Wikipedia says. So I don't see how Muslims were already responding to any Zionist movements, unless it was a pre-emptive move to prevent a new Israel by exterminating all Jews, as Israel was the result of this movement, not the cause. "Islamic principles" are the excuse for Islamic imperialism as much as it is the cause. And political power, along with wealth and privlege, are their goals.

I'm not making excuses or apologizing for JH, I'm making my own points, using approriate language as best I can while discussing a very emotional subject. JH can and does speak for himself.

Sir_W,

Using Wiki, if you like, I quote the following:

"The end of the 19th century saw the beginning of Zionist immigration. The "First Aliyah" was the first modern widespread wave of Zionist aliyah. Jews who migrated to Palestine in this wave came mostly from Eastern Europe and from Yemen. This wave of aliyah began in 1881–82 and lasted until 1903.[132] An estimated 25,000[133]–35,000[134] Jews immigrated during the First Aliyah. The First Aliyah laid the cornerstone for Jewish settlement in Israel and created several settlements such as Rishon LeZion, Rosh Pina, Zikhron Ya'aqov and Gedera."

From this point on, there was a resolve to creating a Jewish homeland or State that became active in politics etc. At that very same time, Arab Nationalism was already existing against the Ottoman Turks and it considered (or smelt) a conspiracy, which in fact proved correct.

"The "Second Aliyah" took place between 1904 and 1914, during which approximately 40,000 Jews immigrated, mostly from Russia and Poland,[135] and some from Yemen. The Second Aliyah immigrants were primarily idealists, inspired by the revolutionary ideals then sweeping the Russian Empire who sought to create a communal agricultural settlement system in Palestine. They thus founded the kibbutz movement. The first kibbutz, Degania, was founded in 1909. Tel Aviv was founded at that time, though its founders were not necessarily from the new immigrants. The Second Aliyah is largely credited with the Revival of the Hebrew language and establishing it as the standard language for Jews in Israel. Eliezer Ben-Yehuda contributed to the creation of the first modern Hebrew dictionary. Although he was an immigrant of the First Aliyah, his work mostly bore fruit during the second.

Ottoman rule over the eastern Mediterranean lasted until World War I when the Ottomans sided with Germany and the Central Powers. During World War I, the Ottomans were driven from much of the region by the British Empire during the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire."

The arrival of the British Mandate was the start of the increases pressure towards that Jewish Entity, Arab Nationalism by this point was now targetting British interests as much as slowing the Jewish ever increasing migration process.


"Under the Sykes–Picot Agreement of 1916, it was envisioned that most of Palestine, when freed from Ottoman control, would become an international zone not under direct French or British colonial control. Shortly thereafter, British foreign minister Arthur Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration of 1917, which promised to establish a Jewish national home in Palestine.[145]"

This declaration was, if anything, became the major element of Arab Nationalism as it did not give or plan Moslem-Arab Nationalism any chance but did offer the Jews an identity and a home and as most Arabs also recognised, they were not from there but refugees from other nations.

By 1919 things got much worse and the British screwed it up even further. "In February 1919 several Moslem and Christian groups from Jaffa and Jerusalem met and adopted a platform which endorsed unity with Syria and opposition to Zionism (this is sometime called the First Palestinian National Congress). A letter was sent to Damascus authorizing Faisal to represent the Arabs of Palestine at the Paris Peace Conference. In May 1919 a Syrian National Congress was held in Damascus, and a Palestinian delegation attended its sessions.[150] In April 1920 violent Arab disturbances against the Jews in Jerusalem occurred which became to be known as the 1920 Palestine riots. The riots followed rising tensions in Arab-Jewish relations over the implications of Zionist immigration. The British military administration's erratic response failed to contain the rioting, which continued for four days. As a result of the events, trust between the British, Jews, and Arabs eroded. One consequence was that the Jewish community increased moves towards an autonomous infrastructure and security apparatus parallel to that of the British administration."

By this time there was, in fact, a Jewish militant movement actively paving the way for conflict. They assassinated both Arabs and British military. Like the Muslim Brotherhood, there were radical militant groups that were backed up or backing up for so-called legitimate groups like the national zionist movement led by Chaim Azriel Weizmann, whom later became Israel's First President. Whiile Weizmann was signing relations with King Faisal over cooperation and peace, Weizman had also supported the non-disbandment of the Jewish Legion which had been activelly involved with the British military in the occupation of Palestine - making it quite clear who's side the British were on. Thus the creation of units called the "Haganah (meaning "The Defense" in Hebrew), from which the Irgun and Lehi split off. As mentioned before, these units would happily attack British forces later on as much as those Palestinians.

I am not making for condemnation or applaus/defence for either, history is history.

As for JH, I am was not asking for anything but pointing out what a low-life with an agenda is willing to spit out and that was the impetus for the topic. JH thinks I am a Moroccan, between his vulgarities called me an invader of The Netherlands etc, etc, ad nauseum, but does not realise I am a retired Dutch diplomat, with 22 years of overseas service including in the Middle-East.

A Dutch diplomat Solkar!
Nou ben ik erachter!

Verrast of geschokt?

Gewoon verwondert!
Verasst?dat kan ik niet begreipen.
Es sei denn dass, das bedeutet genau so das gleiche als verarsched?
Het is jammer dat heb ik de Nederlandse taal bijna vergetet

Na negen jaar nu in noord-Afrika dat ik ook Nederlandse een weinig verloren taal heb. Mijn Engels is ook niet zo goed aangezien ik geboren Franse tweetalig was en op een Frans-Nederlandse school in bestudeerd Den Haag was.

Sorry to the rest of you on the blog (and all respect to the blog-owner), we certainly should be doing this in English, nothing sinister here in the foreign tongue!

I understand the commonality in language, but do me a favor and keep it in English fellas. Thanks.

Sorry, you will notice I mentioned that in the last part of my sentance that we need to get back to the English.

ps. I think disqus is great, clear and works very well.

Just checking John! Solkhar's unusual credentials.
I'm just mystified by a Hollander who embraces Islam;yet at the same time castigates a large part of the
faithful.(it's a breath of fresh air to read the views of a Muslim who seperates himself from the usual nonsensical cant of his coreligionists).
I've met a few myself;but in their own interests are to frightened to voice opposition to even the most ridiculous claptrap of the zealots.
BTW John I still haven't got to grips with the new signing on system!
In the meantime keep up your sterling work ;and lots of fun!

" I'm just mystified by a Hollander who embraces Islam "

You are a very generous person. I definitely wouldn't use
the word "mystified", but disgusted.

Thanks Snack.

If you are having trouble with logging in, shoot me an email (admin[at]infidelsarecool.com) and I'll help you out. The Disqus comment system is about as quality as it gets. I personally am very happy with it.

" JH thinks I am a Moroccan, between his vulgarities called me an invader of The Netherlands etc, etc, ad nauseum, but does not realise I am a retired Dutch diplomat, with 22 years of overseas service including in the Middle-East"

If you are a Dutch who converted to Islam you're even more despicable than I've thought.
I despise you. I'm really not fond of turncoats, therefore I won't answer your posts from
now on.

Yes old Yasser(the tosser)really backed the wrong horse by publicly supporting Sadman Hussein!

Yasser's biggest blunder, HSB, was trying to bump off King Hussein of Jordan. In one fell swoop he fucked up, as Milton put it in Samson Agonistes, the Palestinian cause. Alas, Palestinians are so blinded by their hatred of the superior Jews that they cannot see it.

" So, back to your point, yes JH is as bad as Goebells and the worst of Arab-Nationalists in his and thier bigoted and disgusting language-for-agendas."

????

What about the mufti Al-Hussein, Nasser and Sadat who SUPPORTED the Nazis during WWII?
What about the MUSLIM SS DIVISION ?

You are a CRETIN, PSEUDO- INTELLECTUAL and FILTHY MUSLIM.

Islam is a CANCER.
Everybody knows that.

http://mindprod.com/politics/bush911insidejob.html

9/11 was an inside job in Nazi America

http://www.911sharethetruth.com/

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/insid...


A proverb in urdu.

It is easy to see a speck of dirt on other's clothes but difficult to see one's own clothes full of dirt.

From the King James Bible:
Matthew 7:5 "Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."
Or from Bible in Basic English:
Matthew 7:5 "You false one, first take out the bit of wood from your eye, then will you see clearly to take out the grain of dust from your brother's eye."
We can't learn anything from you,wake up.
So do as your nom de plume suggests and rouse yourself from that Koranic sickbed.

Wake up,
Here's some more information for you to consider.

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20080531_...

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/mili...

And here's a little something which comes at your expense:

http://www.videosift.com/video/Penn-Teller-911-...

Ah' Funky Penn and Teller,true Princes in our mad world of Bullshit!
I think Wake up needs a cortical detox!
Is there a better example of the archetypal Muslim moron?
BTW have you seen Pat Condell's latest?
It's a corker!

May I also ask that where were the four thousand jews who work in Pentagon at the events of September 9 and September 11, 2001.

If you have conscience then only this is enough.

http://www.albasrah.net/warcrimes.htm

I wonder who the real radical is?

Well put Storm_Rider, we can now agree on something totally. I knew three guys from the FBI that I worked with on varous projects that lost their lives on the southern tower and thus I have no sympathy for conspiracy theories. Let alone that I work in one small but nevertheless important aspect of fighting terrorism (identifying and tracking financial movements here in North Africa) and thus have an accute awareness of the reality of the past, present and probably to a degree future of the battle against terrorism.


The stupid assumption by some that as a Muslim there is an automatic denial or apology for terrorism is simply unworkable. Apart from the terror that inflicts many parts of the Muslim world, the greatest successes in fighting it comes from over here and I know the amount of effort involved.

Yes, and the Salvation Army assassinated JFK. And Santa Claus, recently removed from Saudi Arabia and missing his camel girlfriends, had a soft spot for little reindeer girls.

Yes, and individual instances matter the most compared to whole armies killing muslims for no reason but oil and air bases. And yes , Israelis can kill and rape Palestenians because they are muslims. And yes , Indians can kill Kashmiris because they are muslims. And yes , most of the instances quoted even if are lies are right to be thrown on muslims. And yes USA has every right to build a nuclear bomb and even throw it on other countries. But if muslims build a nuclear bomb then that is a great danger to world peace. And yes when the Nazi Americans are killing in Veitnam and Cambodia and Korea, they are maintaining peace. But when the locals are fighting with the invaders then they are terrorists. Army of bandits attacks your house and you don't have the right to defend because defending is terrorism. And yes Actions speak louder than words. And yes , American government has created more Stalins than any other country. And yes........................................................................................................ And yes removing a Santa Claus from a country is a big offense while raping Iraqi women and killing civilians and not sparing even small babies in iraq and Afghanistan is a small deed because even the small babies are terrorists. The American logic is so funny, it says we have every right to loot while you don't have the right to raise even your fist. And little deeds you do are terrorism while our nuclear blasts are also for national security. Even if for the sake of argument , Muslims are thought as terrorists then what is the difference between you and them. They kill in the name of God and you kill in the name of national security. Their motive is political. Your motive is political as well as economical.

wow, calm down and take a deep breathe. you're farther out in left field
than most radical Muslims. I find that fascinating.

I like to use the example of the U.S. Civil War. Many 'good southerners' fought and died defending slavery. They were not evil people. They fought for their way of life. As will just about everyone else. One major problem is that political Islam is at war against us. The vast majority of Muslims will side with the enemy on this issue. And like slavery, this issue is not one that you will change your mind about. You will fight instead. This is human nature.

Solkhar,do you think i should put my 2 Cents Here ????...just want to know ?

I think this items is very good and important to consider. My pet hatred is for how mankind goes towards the more base and brutal side when given a chance. Radicalism and extremism is a part of that, in whatever aspect, political or religious.

This item hits in a few places for me personally. I was in Bosnia shortly after the Srebranica Massacre as part of the fact-finding mission into UN culpability ("95) and also into the seige of Sarajevo (at its end in '96). What it showed me was that a basically typically peaceful existance turns into chaos and then all the groups that wanted to take advantage, settle scores and fall into this ugly-base and violent patters starts. Though we know that Serbian Nationalism was a major aspect, frankly speaking everyone got into the game, Muslim Bosniak, Croat, Serb and outsiders under whatever sick agenda. The stories, evidence, photos, films, graves, witnesses still haunt me to this very day and from that I have also learned that things easily become bad, then nasty then even worse so easily that I remain pessimistic to this day.

Events like this, what has happend in the past and what is happening now are all plausable, and though I do not want to use the word understandable, perhaps "expected" is unfortunately the synical answer that fits it most. What is certain, though, from all that has happened and happening is how humans behave under whatever guise, be it religion, nationalism, race, culture, political ideology or whatever. It should also be also never be forgotten how quickly ANY society can fall into radicalism and then into chaos. I remember a very nice and wonderful Lebanon that become a war-zone and it is still now not the same.

Having said that, the reverse is also possible and we should consider that it is not even a life-span ago and yet we consider Germany just a major country in Europe. Do we fear Japan now? Even Russia is something else now, As my great-grand-father used to tell me, when he was a kid, they were afraid of the French as he was born with post Napolionic trauma.

In reality the subject is how the moderates sit and do nothing and like sheep will even join in rather than risk becoming a victim themselves - the easy way out. They continue until another group, with a collective moral conscious gains enough power to take over and the sheep change sides. Nazism proved this and the Muslim world is certainly letting it happen now. I find that unforgivable for a hundred different reasons but the greatest one is that the moderates themsleves dominate most governements but they do nothing. Add to that they dominate the civil service of most countries along with the educated population being supposively these moderates as well. One factor, perhaps, is that radicalism amongst Muslims is not just religous but politico-religious and political polarization is as much an issue in the Muslim world as the religious one.

Either way, perhaps like all the other events around the world in history, the sheep (as I like to call them) are waiting for this collective moral change to happen, not realising that they must create it.

Sad!

You get a like for that Solkhar;especially the last paragraph.
Curiously today there was a letter in the Telegraph from various British Muslim dignitaries castigating the behaviour of Muslim nutters for throwing eggs at Baroness Warsi;for having the temerity to behave in a civilised manner.
I'm not holding my breath;but it may be a small beginning where so called moderates have realised that inaction is not an option in the face of growing resentment by the Great British public!
They know of course that Gordoom Brown and other cultural traitorsare about to be thrown out of office in 6months and that damage limitation might be the sensible way to go!

Britain has been, in my mind, the most infiltrated by radicals since the move by the Iron Lady to allow "political assylum" as some form of punishment to those former colonies for trying to show some independance - and control over oil prices. Thus, 30 plus years of murderers, extremists, political revolutionary and other criminals being settled in Britain and elsewhere have established themselves, their children into the right jobs, created cells and even encouraged the mass migration under "family migration schemes" to get a crowd that needs and wants their leadership.

The enemy of radicalism is by its very nature "normality". What has to be shown to these people is that they can have normality within the framework of their country, that the government will only support and work with non-radicals and give the population an offer for a life of normality under the right framework. Alternatively chose the wrong way and not be welcome and watch how those normality will get on with their lives while you do not.

It comes down to that principle only. Britain needs now a schism amonst the population, or we should say taking sides. Those that chose the right way will integrate and the next generation will just be basic Brits but whom are Muslim, the others will be a dwindling bunch of old people whom most of their chilren have chosen not to go down the wrong path.

Oh, one other thing - there is absolutely nothing wrong with the government saying that if you do not support the standards and morals of this country that you should leave and that mosques and schools must actively support this or be closed. If anything, home grown, state-sponsored Imams should be created and the only choice for Imam jobs, when enough are created.

Bloody 'ell Solkhar you are suddenly singing from my own hymn sheet!
Just to be a tad pedantic(off topic).
Whom is either the accusative or dative !
Who is the nomenative.
But then again my knowlege of French borders on the pathetic(German less so).

LOL.

The history of borders is another topic, not necessarily following languages but more in the past my either marriage or war. Really interesting reading is the years before and the reasons for the creation of the Kingdom of Belgium and its relation to that part of the world's support for the French Emporer. AFter that, raise the topic again!

"My pet hatred is for how mankind goes towards the more base and brutal side when given a chance... What is certain, though, from all that has happened and happening is how humans behave under whatever guise, be it religion, nationalism, race, culture, political ideology or whatever. It should also be also never be forgotten how quickly ANY society can fall into radicalism and then into chaos."

Yes, solkar, I agree with you; except that societies fall first into engineered chaos, and are then "rescued" by Fascist, Marxist or Islamist tyranny. What is tyranny? Tyranny is any system of government which negates the sacred equality of all individuals before law - law which must derive from "We the People," i.e.: law which derives from the majority within moral constraints, not arbitrary law which derives from an oligarchic minority of elites without moral constraints. What are the necessary moral constraints? Law must secure the individual's sacred rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness - including private property honestly attained through labor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODJfwa9XKZQ

Unfortunately American government has become corrupted through Fascist government control of free enterprise, and now Marxist ownership of free enterprise. God help us to restore our American Constitution - government of the people, by the people, for the people - a Constitution restrained by the American Declaration of Independence.

As you know there will not be many things that we agree on.

One that I disagree on this last above statement from you is the statement about your American Declaration of Independance. Though you may be talking about only the US, which I was not, it may have very full relevance. But at a global level, not even closely.

I have put in another thread the subject of "good governance" which is the issue, democracy is something that only works in mature political socieities with strong economies and no other historic or cultural system of governance. I cannot remind people enough that democracy is a great and noble tradition with huge history and in fact burden. Its origins, ideals and such are very important and that importance has to much of society been lost and transformed into a political concept only with agendas and nationalistic hangups attached. It has been abused and oversued that, if anything, has devaluded it. With all that importance on it, it is still only something for socieities that have no workable alternative.

You have, given a perfect example of the needs, wants and improtance of what democracy give you in the United States and that is absolutely fine and commendable, but it changes when you leave the 200 mile limit. When you are after "life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness" or the French whom want equality and fraternity" you will already see a difference has started as well.

The bulk of the world mostly wants "stability, opportunity and progress in their lives" first above and before anything else including freedoms, equality and even respect.

Your concept of tyranny thus fails based on the above. Tyranny is when stabilty, opporutnity and progress is hampered, at risk or denied.

Do not think that I am playing down life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness which are great and noble demands and that certainly is the goal of any socieity, but it cannot happen first and the majority of the world is by far in need of the first three.

"The bulk of the world mostly wants "stability, opportunity and progress in their lives" first above and before anything else including freedoms, equality and even respect."

Stability, opportunity and progress in their lives means individual security of life, liberty and property creatively attained through labor; this is tantamount to the American Declaration of Independence which is a declaration of Universal (not just American) human rights and justice; it is a declaration with both secular and sacred values which goes to the heart of human nature.

I still the desire of most people on this planet as being a need for whomever is responsible for governance (does not matter if from the people or not) do a good job. That their security is guarenteed, that their chances for making a living are there and that they can plan for a future to some degree. The rest comes when those things are more than secure, the society has progressed to a further level and then the choice of whom governs well (which is all that the term good governance dictates) is based on factors of history, culture, success and continuity.

Interesting subject, the concept behind some revolutions like France and the US comes simply from bad governance and the maturity of the social/economic situation demanding increases and changes and it not being provided for. The immigrants to the new-world came with a set of pre-existing ideals from the old-world, the economy and security of the colonies gave them the right to want more based on those previous ideals and the governance was neither good nor willing to give those to them. I find the very unique creation of the US fascinating.

France on the other hand was rather the more backwards in the ideas side, because of the merging of differing values and ideals from outside sources, the revolution worked but failed, as it lacked a cohesive ideal. The rejection of bad governance was clear but the various forces demanding and implementing it clashed and thus a succession of conflict continued basically up until the Empire wich at last recreated a genuine French styled ideal - which existed in fact until the creation of the EU! I think also it shows why the demand by the french was only for "equality and fraternity", which is still very much stuck in the French mindset.

Your quotes are very good and point to some very interesting factors about ideals.

"When you are after "life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness" or the French whom want equality and fraternity" you will already see a difference has started as well."

Here is the Socialist philosophy of the French Revolution which led to the Marxist Revolution; both built on the irrational and unnatural idea of equality in property (regardless of labor – and never mind that the Socialist elite are more equal than others) rather than the mutually exclusive idea of rational and natural equality before law.

“THE first man who, having enclosed a piece of ground, bethought himself of saying This is mine, and found people simple enough to believe him, was the real founder of civil society. From how many crimes, wars and murders, from how many horrors and misfortunes might not any one have saved mankind, by pulling up the stakes, or filling up the ditch, and crying to his fellows, "Beware of listening to this impostor; you are undone if you once forget that the fruits of the earth belong to us all, and the earth itself to nobody." Jean Jacques Rousseau

http://www.constitution.org/jjr/ineq_04.htm

“But as the essence of the republic or of democracy is equality, it follows that the love of country necessarily includes the love of equality…. This great purity of the French revolution's basis, the very sublimity of its objective, is precisely what causes both our strength and our weakness. Our strength, because it gives to us truth's ascendancy over imposture, and the rights of the public interest over private interests…. We must smother the internal and external enemies of the Republic or perish with it; now in this situation, the first maxim of your policy ought to be to lead the people by reason and the people's enemies by terror…. Terror is nothing other than justice, prompt, severe, inflexible; it is therefore an emanation of virtue.” Maximilien Robespierre

http://www.worldfuturefund.org/wffmaster/Readin...

"We claim to live and die equal, the way we were born: we want this real equality or death; that's what we need. And we'll have this real equality, at whatever price. Unhappy will be those who stand between it and us!... We need not only that equality of rights written into the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen; we want it in our midst, under the roofs of our houses... The French Revolution was nothing but a precursor of another revolution, one that will be bigger, more solemn, and which will be the last." Gracchus Babeuf

http://www.marxists.org/history/france/revoluti...

The American Revolution draws from far different sources than the French and Marxist Revolutions which are in fact counter-revolutions to the American Revolution - they are revolutions against Monarchy/Fascist elitism (government control of free enterprise and the individual) but they only succeeded in installing Marxist/Socialist elitism (government ownership of free enterprise and the individual) which was aptly described in George Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984.

“The state of nature has a law of nature to govern it, which obliges every one: and reason, which is that law, teaches all mankind, who will but consult it, that being all equal and independent, no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions: for men being all the workmanship of one omnipotent, and infinitely wise maker; all the servants of one sovereign master, sent into the world by his order, and about his business; they are his property, whose workmanship they are, made to last during his, not one another's pleasure: and being furnished with like faculties, sharing all in one community of nature, there cannot be supposed any such subordination among us, that may authorize us to destroy one another, as if we were made for one another's uses, as the inferior ranks of creatures are for our's.” John Locke

“God, who hath given the world to men in common, hath also given them reason to make use of it to the best advantage of life, and convenience. The earth, and all that is therein, is given to men for the support and comfort of their being. And tho' all the fruits it naturally produces, and beasts it feeds, belong to mankind in common, as they are produced by the spontaneous hand of nature; and no body has originally a private dominion, exclusive of the rest of mankind, in any of them, as they are thus in their natural state: yet being given for the use of men, there must of necessity be a means to appropriate them some way or other, before they can be of any use, or at all beneficial to any particular man.…Though the earth, and all inferior creatures, be common to all men, yet every man has a property in his own person: this nobody has any right to but himself. The labour of his body, and the work of his hands, we may say, are properly his. Whatsoever then he removes out of the state that nature hath provided, and left it in, he hath mixed his labour with, and joined to it something that is his own, and thereby makes it his property. It being by him removed from the common state nature hath placed it in, it hath by this labour something annexed to it, that excludes the common right of other men: for this labour being the unquestionable property of the labourer, no man but he can have a right to what that is once joined to, at least where there is enough, and as good, left in common for others.” John Locke

http://history.hanover.edu/courses/excerpts/111...

"When you are after "life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness" or the French whom want equality and fraternity" you will already see a difference has started as well."

Yes, there is a huge difference between the American Revolution and the French/Marxist Revolutions. Ours is based on rational, natural equality before law with rational, natural inequality of outcome; theirs is based on irrational, unnatural inequality before law with irrational, unnatural equality of outcome - never mind the elite Marxist/Socialist oligarchy at the top - those who are "more equal than others."

"It had long been realized that the only secure basis for oligarchy is collectivism. Wealth and privilege are most easily defended when they are possessed jointly. The so-called "abolition of private property"...meant in effect the concentration of property in far fewer hands than before... It had always been assumed that if the Capitalist Class were expropriated Socialism must follow; and unquestionable the Capitalists had been expropriated. Factories, mines, land, houses, transport, everything had been taken away from them; and since these things were no longer private property it followed that they must be public property. Ingsoc (Socialist Principles of Oceania), which grew out of the earlier Socialist movement and inherited its phraseology, has in fact carried out the main item in the Socialist program with the result; foreseen and intended beforehand, that economic inequality has been made permanent." George Orwell

"I have put in another thread the subject of "good governance" which is the issue..."

Good governance comes from "We the People," i.e.: the majority which is restrained by the moral principles of sacred equality before law and the sacred rights of individuals to their unalienable rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness (private property honestly earned through labor).

"democracy is something that only works in mature political socieities with strong economies and no other historic or cultural system of governance."

The United States is not a democracy; we are a Constitutional Republic - a nation of majority law which is restrained by the moral principles of our Declaration. Unfortunately our Constitution has been usurped by the American Marxists - it is now called the "Living Constitution" which is Orwellian (Marxist) Newspeak for Dead Constitution.

"In Germany, they came first for the Communists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Communist;
And then they came for the trade unionists, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a trade unionist;
And then they came for the Jews, And I didn’t speak up because I wasn’t a Jew;
And then . . . they came for me . . . And by that time there was no one left to speak up."
-- Attributed to Pastor Martin Niemöller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...)

In the interest of full disclosure, these were not my original thoughts. However, they were so poignant and I so agreed with them that I thought they should be posted here for everyone to see. Let no one think that I am so great a writer.

Freedomlvr there is no apology necessary; the fact that as you say the bonmots are poignantly relevant
makes you into a very welcome contributor here.
Give us more of this good stuff I enjoy it!

Well said, Hellosnackbar.

Thank you Lady Odyssia; I must say I've enjoyed many of your pithy observations.

hellosnackbar Thanks. It is good to feel welcome. I'll try to keep more coming. A special thanks to Infidelesto too. Let's keep on being infidels and enjoying every minute of it. It drives the fanatics crazy.

Do you know where it's from? Maybe we can track down the source. Anyways, thanks for the honesty

Thank you Freedomlovr; you are also self-evidently a truth lover. Truth and freedom are inseparable, as are lies and tyranny.

"Doublethink means the power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them... with the lie always one leap ahead of the truth... There was truth and there was untruth; and if you clung to the truth even against the whole world, you were not mad... She (Julia) did not feel the abyss opening beneath her feet at the thought of lies becoming truth." George Orwell, 1984