Taking “interfaith dialogue” to another level

Also on the tube from this same poster & I think is EXTREMELY appropriate to post here (sorry, am I posting too much? Do I have a limit? ;-) is THIS: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYgLFm0CQGQ&NR=1 Shiite Muslim, member of Hezbollah----convert to Christianity. His story is pretty amazing. I like towards the end, he says "I don't expect anybody to become a Christian because of my testimony. My testimony is only good for me."

I was actually surprised they weren't forcibly told to convert to Islam & then beheaded after refusing. Happened recently on the dark continent.

To be fair, I think, there is no basis of comparison between this and the allegations of kidnapping in Haiti. The Courts in Haiti will undoubtedly find that the people involved were attempting to rescue kids and return them to Haiti when the conditions there stabilized. However, the above mentioned case is a bit different. Why would Christian clerics be lured to a debate in good faith and arrive to find out that it was merely a muz "set-up" for something that could be very sinister? The first impulse is to think the set-up has a political (phony religious) end in mind.....like trials, convictions and public executions.....that sounds VERY muzleem to me. It's something I would have suspected right from the outset....at the invitation. I'm also pretty sure that, at least, some of the invitees had that very thought cross their minds. This demonstrates two things to me. #1. The Christians that showed up were very brave (or dumber than a box of rocks) to put faith in anything a muz cleric said. And #2. that the muz are very afraid to get into an open debate, in public, with Christian clerics that have their shit together. Muslim clerics pretty much always look stupid when they speak in public to non-inculcated audiences. If their audience ain't muz....muz clerics say things that non-muz think are either stupid or blatantly untrue and foolish. That's a fact. Period. Dot. End of story.

Woooooww.....I just got the neatest e-mail that is perfect to share with the thread going on here! I'm so completely NOT trying to woo you to the other side Beej ;-) just wanted to add this to the pot & stir it around if you guys will oblige :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmm-0-Rdxo8&feat...

Nice:Talent and spirituality that is,not God.
The prodigious little flower would probably have her hands cut off in Saudi Arabia.

Say this before, but it is inspirational.....especially in that the girl had no input, other than her own mind, to create these thoughts and pictures. Incredible might even be a better word. I just hope God is forgiving enough to allow me to see it too.

THAT'S what I thought was amazing too, Tonto. There was no indoctrination here, just the innocence of a child.
Her artwork is amazing!! I don't have that much talent in my little finger, ha!

Boy oh boy, infidelesto; you got some really weird people commenting on this site. Why are you such an atheist magnet? These people that try to make a comparison between Christians and muslims crack me up. Moral equivocators, I think they're called.

Who are the weirdos that you refer to Gregg?
I'm an atheist; and you will find no equivocation whatsoever in my scorn and disgust for the so called religion of peace.
I think anybody who believes that an illiterate, murdering, desert bandit to be a model for the perfect man to be certifiably insane.

Be sure it was a set-up, I do not feel that much sympathy, some evangalists deserve it. 10 of them are now being charged with kidnapping and conspiracy in Haiti, their disgusting assumption that they can steal children from the "devil worshipping Haitans" and because they are American they are immune from prosecution simply makes me angry. At least three of the chidlren even had their parents and were not orphans.

I have had experience with the worst form of tevangalists before. Arrogantly turning up and strutting around developing countries as if they are the "saviour" themselves, criticizing the local faith in one hand and "selling" thier faith as the only solution/redemption/way to heaven on the other. I had the pleasure of identifying one family here in Rabat and watched as they sold Bibles, condmened the faith of the country as being "of the devil" I then pointed out who I was, called their Ambassador (as the guy was a diplomat), called the authorities whom I work with and within 7 days they were back home, he was forced to resign from the MFA and I got three letters, an apology from the Ambassador, an appology from the Deputy foreign minister and a thank you from the DG of the local MFA.

I similarly hate the Muslim equivalent, of which Pakistanis make up the most and I also tell them to "piss off". I was in the UK and as I walked down the street two guys in "sunnah" (Arab robe dress) and beards walked up to me and said if I wanted to go to heaven. I said nothing and they said the Qur'an was the way to heaven, Christianity is evil and that the Jews wanted to rule the world. I took a long breadth and quoted two surahs from the Qur'an in Arabic which I know they understood, the first one says that the Qur'an is the Message from God but only man's actions will allow him in heaven, the second quote was how Christians and Jews were the righteous People of the Book and then I said please do not insult the Prophet Abraham. They turned around and looked for the next victim, this is the "euro-muslim", the greatest hypocrits that in many aspects are worse than the gun-wielding terrorists. If these guys tried that line in downtown Casablanca they would end up in jail for a month and the slow-boat back to Karrachi.

These people commited no crime, there's no reason to believe they deserved being set up. You're always criticizing people that generalize, then you lump all evangelists together, then reference the Haitian kidnapping evangelists trying to imply guilt through association, your most common tactic. Muslims aren't so bad, the Christians and Jews do the same thing don't they? That's the kind of thing you like to claim. Geraldo was just on Fox, he just got back from investigating this incident in Haiti first hand. He says the evangelists meant well and did not deliberately do anything wrong. They were trying to deal with an emergency situation the best they could. He feels the Haitian government is throwing it's full weight at them while ignoring much worst problems left by the earthquake. Such as the escaped criminals roaming the country taking advantage of helpless people, particularly women and girls.

I've had a lot of experience with evangelists right here at home. I think you mistook their evangelistic fervor for arrogance, although the results of either may have been the same. They turned me off. Although I'll take evangelism over the Muslim method all too often used involving kidnapping infidel girls, raping them, marrying them and forcing them to convert to Islam. I fear all too many males convert to Islam when they realize the position it puts them in regarding women. I suspect it's the same reason many Muslim men defend Islam so fiercely.

I too fear for your safety, Solkhar. You could easily be seen as an apostate by some of your fellow Muslims. Didn't you tell me one time that you don't believe in the hadiths? And you do say Islam needs reformed. I don't know any of the details of your security, but I'd advise more caution on your part.

Sucky,you are the Vilest,Worst Asshole Dropping of Mahomedan of alls Mahomedan who exist ' t'es vraiment une Crotte,un Pet Puant de Mohamed' and let me tell you they stink a lot....You're lucky of not being around me here, your dirty face of degenerate Mahomedan I'll break it,it would not take long time...Your link of shit and smear, put it where I think and eats it Asshole of Momo.
I've already said that your French were extremely bad,corrupt and ...'Touché Pas Ma Enfant'....is still true !
The paedophil 'Sucky' it's you and i know it,it's why you've saved in Morocco,Skunk.
I know because i read French site and it is well known that Europeans Paedophil go to Marackech fuck beautiful little boys...I know that's what you do there, because of my big nose of pig. Fuck You Rat D'égoût ! Porky ton Meilleur Ami,Bizouuuuuuuu x

IF,I MEAN IF ....What you say is true Dominique,you are a very Bad Muslim. Pay attention to your neck, you could lose it very quickly by your brothers.....Anyway,here with me to the pig farm, you'll always have a place where you will be safe and secure as you know. Porky your only Friend ! x

As an atheist (thank God!) I can view such matters from the outside, so to speak, and I can report that it fascinates me that Mohammedans are scared shitless of Christianity. What are they afraid of? That Christianity fosters love and consideration for others? That the message of Christianity is incalculably superior to that of Islam? That Mohammedans exposed to Christian doctrine might have their eyes opened to a better way of life? That Jesus was incomparably better a man than The Bloodthirsty Paedophile? That modern Christianity encourages thought? That Christianity understands and is sympathetic to doubt? That Christianity recognises and forgives human frailty? Yes, I know that one should not judge Christianity by the manifold actions of Christians, for were it so, Mohammedans would perhaps not act so violently to those who would spread the word, but they fear the Christian Message - the clarion call to love one another and to strive for altruistic existence, even for those not of the Faith. This is anathema to Mohammedans, for it undermines the very fabric of their existence. Thus, they act accordingly. Not all of them, of course - only those who are in a position to get away with it. Meanwhile, the others bide their time ....

If you carry on like this Beej you'll have Christian evangelists beating a path to your door to employ you as a speech writer.
And nobody can accuse you of partiality!
As they say in the blogger's vernacular ROFL(or something like that)

My Christian faith is based on the words and actions of Jesus as recorded in the New Testament, and upon the moral laws of the Old Testament, and upon the lives of so many Christians in my family and in my community. For me Christian faith brings God's Spirit into my otherwise material/animal existence. Our animal nature is good - God made it too - but without the attenuation of God's Spirit our animal nature is tilted toward evil. The problem with Islam is that it singularly magnifies man's animal nature - it turns men and women into animals - bloodthirsty animals.

"God's spirit" is utter bullshit; a figment of the limited imagination of the woefully ignorant. All religion is detestable. It enslaves. Rid yourself of such superstitious nonsense and breathe the fresh air of reason. Reason cannot lead to such sad invention. It is the foulest invention of the primitive. If humanity has progressed it is despite, rather than because of, religion. There is not a shred of evidence for the existence of your imagined dictator up there in the skies. I like the words of Thomas Harris's Hannibal Lecter when he buried his little sister: words to the effect that there is no God and that she should be thankful for the fact that she would not have to spend Eternity kissing God's ass. Right on, Mr H! Hell's teeth, WHY do people continue to believe in such balderdash? You refer to the moral laws of the Old Testament? Are you serious???? Thou shalt not kill, followed by kill those fuckers who stand in your way? Very uplifting, that! We atheists piss on your belief. Are you one of those misguided souls who believe we atheists would destroy the wondrous and beautiful creations and artistic achievements of those religiously inspired? Think again. We revere the B Minor Mass and the Missa Solemnis and Messiah and St Matthew Passion and Parsifal and uncounted great works of art and architecture inspired by the devout, but we value more the cathedrals of glory built by the untrammeled minds of science and reason, for they point the way ahead rather than to the ignorant past. They tell us there is no absolute truth; no certainty; no final word. That is the province of the religious of all persuasions. The province of the blind and brainwashed. The realms of the intellectually damned. The suffocated. The strangled.

As far as I can judge, Jesus was a good bloke, but I steadfastly refuse to believe the bullshit written about him - his divinity and all the rest of it. (Such was a later invention, you will agree?) In the event of someone else arising to expound gentleness and the like - the Dalai Lama springs to mind - would you proclaim him to be the son of God? Do you believe that without belief in God goodness is unattainable? Are you one of those who think that denial of the existence of God is insulting to you? You truly believe that absence of belief in God turns people into bloodthirsty animals? The Aztecs and Incas mock you from their graves. The sprits of the victims of the Inquisition weep to read your words. Has it ever occurred to you that God waited hundreds of thousands of years to reveal his existence to the human race - to a backward parcel of nomads with an axe to grind, or are you one of those tragics who believe that Creation happened 6,000 years ago? Verily, you are one of the brainwashed, for no amount of reason could have led you to your "belief". You have no belief. Your "belief" is blind obedience. You are a victim. You are no different from the child who believes in Santa Claus or Mohammed or the Easter Bunny. Don't tell me your belief is based upon the words and actions of Jesus: it is squarely built upon the parents and others who indoctrinated you as surely as those who subjugate the infantile minds of the Islam's little ones.

Beejj, may I point out something that illustrates how a mistranslation or misinterpretation can affect a religious issue? It turns out that "Thou shalt not kill" should read "Thou shalt not murder". A seemingly minor point, but it lead to such things as passivism because some believed they could not kill even in their own defense. And it opens those that try to follow the commandment to the appearance of violating it when they do kill in self defense, or even to feed themselves. Even when you change the term to murder, you have to decide if applys only to defenseless humans, or does it include defenseless animals? I believe it applys only to humanity. How many similarly simple mistakes exist in religious texts?

As for your atheism, it has been pointed out that it requires faith to believe there is no God, as much as it takes to believe there is. As stompykitty points out, no one can prove the existence, or non-existence, of God, whichever way you decide, you base it on what you decide to believe, and belief like that is faith. I have problems with religion as you do. Maybe it would help to see religion as a tool in the form of an institution. Like any tool, it can be used for good or evil. Obviously, there are no "gods" present to lead any religion, so it's the human leaders we can blame or praise for how their religions are used or perform. When you get right down to it, whether you are religious or atheist, it's humans we are dealing with.

Ouch Beej. I'm responding before reading any other replies, so forgive me in advance if I cover something dealt with.
Why the vehement & venomous reply to Storm Riders post? I really liked your previous comments, especially because I know you're an athiest. That's why I'm so taken aback at this. I honestly don't think SR's post merits this personal reprisal (?) So much of it was pure insult, & from what I can tell, unprovoked. I am Christian, & I'm sorry....I don't consider myself a victim, ignorant or brainwashed. I don't follow blindly, I study Christian beliefs. I am always open to hearing the opposing view & being genuinely thoughtful about it!
Here are the parts I felt compelled to respond to, if you don't mind.

"There is not a shred of evidence for the existence of your imagined dictator up there in the skies"
----So too there is no shred of evidence God does not exist. You can not prove it, just as I can not prove He does.
"They tell us there is no absolute truth; no certainty; no final word."
-----Maybe you're coming from a different angle here, but I will venture to say there IS absolute truth. Would you say it is absolute truth that it is wrong to torture & kill an infant? Do you think those considered sane by most standards would agree? That to me in an absolute truth. Am I wrong?

"You truly believe that absence of belief in God turns people into bloodthirsty animals? The Aztecs and Incas mock you from their graves"
-----Maybe I'm confused, but the Inca's & Mayan gods WERE bloodthirsty. The people had some very violent practices. But maybe I'm missing an element of the comment (?)

The Inquisition.... I'm sure you've studied (?) really (was started by &) boiled down to the usual "hate the Jews" agenda. At least that was my take after reading The Spanish Inquisition by Cecil Roth. But that's really besides the point, obviously any religious movement can be used for political purposes!

The last few sentences of your post were just.....mean spirited. I don't think anyone is trying to convert you, Beej. Why does it seem to me you are trying to convert Christians? I'm not insulted by your unbelief, I would be insulted by your insults! LOL!
What's going on man? Did you have evangelists come to your door today or what?

Correct, Stompy. The Aztecs, Incas and Mayans were bloodthirsty in the extreme, sacrificing untold numbers to their Sun God, or whatever. What happened? Along came Christians. Enlightened Christians. Followers of Christ. The "Do unto others ...." blokes. What were they to do? Disabuse them of their wrongness, of course! Show them the love of Christ and the Path of Righteousnness. Excellent idea! How to do this? How to convince them that murder is wrong? Well, burning them at the stake is a good start, isn't it? Carting off slaves to Spain is a good idea, too. What else can we do so that we might spread THE WORD of the TRUE FAITH? Ah, yes: steal all their gold and other riches so that they might be forever impoverished. Subjugate them. But everything has worked out for the best, hasn't it? Just look at their descendants! Rolling in wealth! Attaining high office in all fields of endeavour! In charge of their countries and destinies! Still speaking their ancient languages! Gosh, how they would be languishing now but for the revealed word of Christ! Holy shit! How can a Christian have the raw GALL to visit the ruins of their ancient civilisations?

My words were mean spirited? Not at all. They were an attempt to open the eyes of someone dangerously blind: someone as certain of his correctness of misplaced belief as were those who butchered the technologically backward of Central America and other places where Christianity spread. In this respect, I see ugly parallels between Christianity and Islam. Jesus must weep bitter tears to witness the savagery of his followers - which is not to say I believe in that fine man's divinity.

I am trying to convert Christians? Perish the thought. May they waste their lives as they wish, and good luck to 'em. Indeed, they do their damnedest to convert me.

How could you be insulted by my "unbelief"? What's insulting about the application of reason - that quality of the human mind that so worried Martin Luther? You would be insulted by my insults? What insults? Why do believers look upon the views of unbelievers as insults? What's wrong with you people? I do not feel in any way insulted by your belief in God, so why do you take umbrage at my disbelief and my pouring scorn on the very notion of God?

The fact that there is no proof that God does not exist should give you no comfort. (Gee, I believe in something that cannot be disproved, so it MUST be right!) God is a creation of human imagination. Sounds good, that - human imagination. Good stuff. Human imagination has given us virtual mastery of our planet and sent people into space. There is no telling where it might all end - if it ever will. Alas, there is imagination and imagination, isn't there? Belief in God - the Abrahamic God - is the ultimate expression of selfishness. Such an imagined God exists to care for ME; to look after MY interests; to give me immortality. Hell's teeth, I even look like him!!!

*sigh* okay here we go........

Thank you for clearing up the Aztec/ Mayan comment. I figured there was more implied. I agree! What the explorers did was vile. That was back when the Catholic Church WAS the government. It was awful & corrupt. Yes, this happened often, but I don't see it as a direct result of "religion or faith" it was evil men & government who followed a certain faith. They, (maybe like in America) may have claimed it was "destined by God"-manifest destiny. That was MAN, not God.
How do Christians have the gall to visit the ruins? LOL! Seriously? Because it was not THAT individual visiting that did those things! When I lived in Hawaii, I could have said the same for Japanese visiting Pearl Harbor! However, I understand that it was not that individual who attacked our US Navy. They simply want to learn about what exactly happened between our countries.
Let me reiterate, I'm not insulted by your unbelief, but YOUR INSULTS. I said this as well in my comments in the "coexist" post. Here's some of your 'non' insults--- "We atheists piss on your belief. The province of the blind and brainwashed. Verily, you are one of the brainwashed,You are a victim, Belief in God - the Abrahamic God - is the ultimate expression of selfishness" You do not consider this insulting? So I can generalize & say Atheists are damned & going to hell, slaves of Satan, too emotionally inept to believe in the love of God, sad empty individuals, wasted lives, some of the most evil people throughout history.......... How is that respectful of your beliefs (non-belief)? But maybe I'm missing something.
You wrote"My words were mean spirited? Not at all. They were an attempt to open the eyes of someone dangerously blind: someone as certain of his correctness of misplaced belief as were those who butchered the technologically backward of Central America and other places where Christianity spread. In this respect, I see ugly parallels between Christianity and Islam."
You're trying to save us all from the (past) evils of Christianity huh? Thanks. The parallels to Islam.....mmmm yeeeessss. I believe we've discussed this before in this blog. Christianity has seen reform. Islam has not. Yet you see the events from centuries ago possibly happening again in the name of the Christian God? Okie dokie.

I'm truly sorry you have such complete disdain for religion & belief in God. I don't honestly understand why you feel so compelled to ridicule faith in so many colorful ways. I mean, I don't attempt to discredit unbelief every chance I get.
I've always agreed to disagree. If I've expressed myself properly, I'll leave it there. I truly appreciate the input on this blog from ALL members I interact with in here, be they Atheist, Christian or anything in between (as long as they act civilly & type coherently!) I look forward to more discussion & learning from all.

Stompy, I apologise if you feel I have insulted you or anyone else. That was never my intention, but perhaps I expressed my sentiments carelessly.

It seems we are having trouble with the word atheism, so allow me to tell you my views. I have never seen any reason to believe in God - no logical reason, that is. There might well be a God, but until I see evidence for it/him/her I shall maintain my stance. Even if can be proved to exist I will never view that entity in the light of what is often referred to as the Abrahamic God, because such a concept is childish and obviously man-made.

That's all I have time for, just now ..... I have to throw another Inca on the barbie. ;- )

Thanks Beej. Sincerely :-) I did know your stance, we had discussed it before & I think I told you that your reasons were completely legitimate. Everyone comes to their own belief or non belief by their life experiences & learnings. It's a very personal process.
I also truly appreciate you taking the time to communicate! I'll leave you alone now & will try not to take offense when you need to vent, deal?
Don't burn that Inca, you'll ruin the flavor ;-P

As a Native American, I could take exception about that comment about the burnt Inca. The Inca didn't but the Azteca were sometimes cannibals, so I'll let it slide for now. Torture was considered an opportunity to demonstrate one's bravery and control and a huge respect was given the most stoic....and their people. They were considered "worthy". People were PROUD to have worthy enemies.

Just a personal note guy. My ex is 1/8th Seneca, and we have 3 children and 5 grandchildren we are proud to say carry Native American blood in them, along with English, German, French, Dutch and Scotch/Irish. My mother's side came over around the time of the Mayflower, and my father's side were Statue of Liberty era immigrants. My grandfather was an army DI during WWI, and my father spent two years in Italy with the 1st Armored Division during WWII. I'm proud to say I'm an American and happy that we share our country and our heritages as fellow Americans.

My dear Tonto, don't take what I wrote out of context. It was a feeble attempt at humour after my previous message to Stompy in which I referred to atrocities committed by the Roman Church on the indigenous peoples of Central America. Believe me, I am on YOUR side!!

LOL! Relax bro, I was just pullin' Funky's chain for fun. "Chrispy Critters" were ugly but the smell made me think of burnt bar-be-que. That's whacked out, ain't it?

I love watching two old guys fight ;)

Cheeky upstart!

Point taken Tonto!
What is your heritage anyway?
I used to love visiting the Navajo Res whenever I was in NM. One of my favorite places. My mom taught me how to make fry bread when I was young, just measuring with your hands ;) I can never quite get it like they do it on the Res though :-/

All very interesting.I have a strange fondness for the Aztecs;don't really know why but it might have something to do with the Sun God;because as far as the worship of things goes I think the Sun is probably closer to the truth than a spirit who gave life to bearded prophets.Aztecs:Poetry,warfare,gold,jewelery,violence,agriculture and spectacle.....oh and aqua ducts!
Tonto:"People were PROUD to have worthy enemies." How very Spartan! Both the Spartans and the Aztecs were nomad victims until they set up shop at wit's end to become the thriving and formidable peoples of history that we know today.
I have no sympathy,however,for cultures that profit through war when they are annihilated by nations or cultures that employ the same means.Goose and gander stuff.Live by the sword,die by the sword.The Aztecs fell to Spanish soldiers,subterfuge and alien disease because they were simply outdone;that's life.
Our current problem being that the Islamic war culture is on the march while our own military culture is on the wane(lack of interest).As advanced as we think we are,it is still,unfortunately "kill or be killed".

The Spanish conquered the Azteca BECAUSE they were strong from kicking the crap out of the muz scum that had infested Spain. After the muz had been defeated and kicked out, they had all these ferocious warriors with time on their hands. They went, literally, all over the world looking for new lands to subjugate......so South America, Florida, New Mexico, California, and even the Phillipines and Japan got some of that heat. Same old story. Superior weapons, tactics and shock and awe wins. They did get beaten back in a couple areas though......the pueblo injuns in New Mexico and Arizona kicked them out for a while but let them back in after they promised not to mess with injun religion any more.

I think we agree.All countries attain greatness through the waging of wars.England cut her teeth with the French and went on to control much of the world.America cut her teeth through independence and two world wars.
The West is complacent because of an unprecedented period of homeland peace.
The misguided belief seems to be:"We understand peace so the rest of the world must too".
World peace can only ever be achieved through totalitarian/world government dictatorship(U.N).
The concept of vigilance is null and void without free nations willing to back their creeds and moralities with war.
Consensus equals death.

Atheists weren’t exactly saints during the 20th Century. According to The Black Book of Communism the total murdered by Atheist-Communist regimes approaches 100 million people. According to R.J. Rummel (author of Death By Government), the figure could exceed 250 million. There is some uncertainty over who is the worst murderer: the Soviet Union or China. The Black Book of Communism attributes roughly 20 million civilian murders to the USSR (Lenin and Stalin) and 65 million to China (Mao). Rummel's best estimates are 62 million USSR deaths and 35 million Communist China deaths (but could be up to 127 and 103 million, respectively).

http://theblackbook.wordpress.com/2006/11/22/ex...

http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vi...

According to Death by Government by R. J. Rummel, over 169,000,000 innocent civilians were murdered by their Communist (International Socialist) or Fascist (National Socialist) governments in the twentieth century.

http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/NOTE1.HTM

All of which proves God's existence?

“I long to take vengeance on the One Who rules from above.” Karl Marx

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.” Karl Marx

“Religion is the opium of the masses.” Karl Marx

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” Vladimir Lenin

"I shall die a proletarian revolutionist, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and, consequently, an irreconcilable atheist.” Leon Trotsky

“The organizer is in a true sense reaching for the highest level for which man can reach -- to create, to be a ‘great creator,’ to play God.” Saul Alinsky

"Religion is the opium of the masses" is one of the most misunderstood quotations in all History. Think. It is just that. It is balm for the troubled mind. Just that. Only that. Valuable?

Odyssia,
Have you ever read Animal Farm by George Orwell? Remember Moses the bird; he was a metaphor for religion - supernatural balm for the troubled mind - a balm in Sugarcandy Mountain - not of this world. Moses was banned by Napoleon the pig after the Animal Revolution. The opium of religion was banned because, as we all know, Communism creates Utopia on Earth - Paradise on Earth. Do you not recall how Moses made his re-appearance later in the book - he returned as a Prophet of the new State religion - a new atheistic balm - a new atheistic opiate for the troubled mind.

Alas, supernatural paradise has been replaced by earthly paradise:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5911p_famine-...

That's exactly how I've always understood the quote Odyssia my dear.
But it's a point that needs repeating again and again.

“Let us with caution indulge the supposition that morality can be maintained without religion. Reason and experience both forbid us to expect that national morality can prevail in exclusion of religious principle.” George Washington

“It is impossible for the man of pious reflection not to perceive in it [the Constitution] a finger of that Almighty hand which has been so frequently and signally extended to our relief in the critical stages of the revolution.” James Madison

"It is religion and morality alone which can establish the principles upon which freedom can securely stand." John Adams

“The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for among old parchments or musty records. They are written, as with a sunbeam, in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased.” Alexander Hamilton

"Almighty God hath created the mind free. All attempts to influence it by temporal punishments or burthens . . . are a departure from the plan of the Holy Author of our religion.” Thomas Jefferson

“God who gave us life gave us liberty. Can the liberties of a nation be secure when we have removed a conviction that these liberties are the gift of God?” Thomas Jefferson

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed." Thomas Jefferson

"That from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion---that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain---that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom---and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.” Abraham Lincoln

“If God does not exist, then everything is permitted” Fyodor Dostoyevsky

“It is not true, as is sometimes said, that man cannot organize the world without God. What is true is that, without God, he can only organize it against man.” Henri de Lubac

It proves without the fear of God, men commit even greater evil.

Sir W, my friend, this is beneath you.

I'd like to add Nazi Regime to this if it's not already implied. ( I have not read the books) Nazism certainly was not Christian. Closer to occultism actually.

Beej,
Your hostility to my faith reminds me of some historical figures:

“I long to take vengeance on the One Who rules from above.” Karl Marx

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.” Karl Marx

“Religion is the opium of the masses.” Karl Marx

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” Vladimir Lenin

“I shall die a proletarian revolutionist, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and, consequently, an irreconcilable atheist.” Leon Trotsky

“The religious aspects of socialism may explain the extraordinary attraction of socialist doctrines and their capacity to inflame individuals and to inspire popular movements. It is precisely these aspects of socialism which cannot be explained when socialism is regarded as a political or economic category. Socialism's pretensions to be a universal world view comprising and explaining everything also make it akin to religion. A characteristic of religion is socialism's view of history not as a chaotic phenomenon but as an entity that has a goal, a meaning and a justification. In other words, both socialism and religion view history teleologically… Socialism's hostility toward traditional religion hardly contradicts this judgment--it may simply be a matter of animosity between rival religions… It is certainly true that socialism is hostile to religion. But is it possible to understand it as a consequence of atheism? Hardly, at least if we understand atheism as it is usually defined: as the loss of religious feeling… Socialism's attitude toward religion does not at all resemble the indifferent and skeptical position of someone who has lost interest in religion. The term "atheism" is inappropriate for the description of people in the grip of socialist doctrines. It would be more correct to speak here not of "atheists" but of "God-haters," not of "atheism" but of "theophobia." Such, certainly, is the passionately hostile attitude of socialism toward religion. Thus, while socialism is certainly connected with the loss of religious feeling, it can hardly be reduced to it. The place formerly occupied by religion does not remain vacant; a new lodger appeared.” Igor Shafarevich

http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevi...

I still consider you a friend, but realize you are not the only one here who has the intellectual ability to lay cards on the table.

Beej,
Your hostility to my faith reminds me of some historical figures:

“I long to take vengeance on the One Who rules from above.” Karl Marx

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.” Karl Marx

“Religion is the opium of the masses.” Karl Marx

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” Vladimir Lenin

“I shall die a proletarian revolutionist, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and, consequently, an irreconcilable atheist.” Leon Trotsky

“The religious aspects of socialism may explain the extraordinary attraction of socialist doctrines and their capacity to inflame individuals and to inspire popular movements. It is precisely these aspects of socialism which cannot be explained when socialism is regarded as a political or economic category. Socialism's pretensions to be a universal world view comprising and explaining everything also make it akin to religion. A characteristic of religion is socialism's view of history not as a chaotic phenomenon but as an entity that has a goal, a meaning and a justification. In other words, both socialism and religion view history teleologically… Socialism's hostility toward traditional religion hardly contradicts this judgment--it may simply be a matter of animosity between rival religions… It is certainly true that socialism is hostile to religion. But is it possible to understand it as a consequence of atheism? Hardly, at least if we understand atheism as it is usually defined: as the loss of religious feeling… Socialism's attitude toward religion does not at all resemble the indifferent and skeptical position of someone who has lost interest in religion. The term "atheism" is inappropriate for the description of people in the grip of socialist doctrines. It would be more correct to speak here not of "atheists" but of "God-haters," not of "atheism" but of "theophobia." Such, certainly, is the passionately hostile attitude of socialism toward religion. Thus, while socialism is certainly connected with the loss of religious feeling, it can hardly be reduced to it. The place formerly occupied by religion does not remain vacant; a new lodger appeared.” Igor Shafarevich

http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevi...

I still consider you a friend - but you are not the only one here capable of laying cards on the table.

That's your best rant to date old chap!
I'd love to be a fly on the wall of your house when the Jehova's witnesses come calling.
Pat Condell would love you;if you ever met.

Your hostility toward my faith reminds me of some historical figures:

“I long to take vengeance on the One Who rules from above.” Karl Marx

“The first requisite for the happiness of the people is the abolition of religion.” Karl Marx

“Religion is the opium of the masses.” Karl Marx

“Our program necessarily includes the propaganda of atheism.” Vladimir Lenin

“For forty-three years of my conscious life I have remained a revolutionist; for forty-two of them I have fought under the banner of Marxism. If I had to begin all over again I would of course try to avoid this or that mistake, but the main course of my life would remain unchanged. I shall die a proletarian revolutionist, a Marxist, a dialectical materialist, and, consequently, an irreconcilable atheist.” Leon Trotsky

“The religious aspects of socialism may explain the extraordinary attraction of socialist doctrines and their capacity to inflame individuals and to inspire popular movements. It is precisely these aspects of socialism which cannot be explained when socialism is regarded as a political or economic category. Socialism's pretensions to be a universal world view comprising and explaining everything also make it akin to religion. A characteristic of religion is socialism's view of history not as a chaotic phenomenon but as an entity that has a goal, a meaning and a justification. In other words, both socialism and religion view history teleologically. .. Finally, socialism's hostility toward traditional religion hardly contradicts this judgment--it may simply be a matter of animosity between rival religions… It is certainly true that socialism is hostile to religion. But is it possible to understand it as a consequence of atheism? Hardly, at least if we understand atheism as it is usually defined: as the loss of religious feeling. .. Socialism's attitude toward religion does not at all resemble the indifferent and skeptical position of someone who has lost interest in religion. The term "atheism" is inappropriate for the description of people in the grip of socialist doctrines. It would be more correct to speak here not of "atheists" but of "God-haters," not of "atheism" but of "theophobia." Such, certainly, is the passionately hostile attitude of socialism toward religion. Thus, while socialism is certainly connected with the loss of religious feeling, it can hardly be reduced to it. The place formerly occupied by religion does not remain vacant; a new lodger appeared.” Igor Shafarevich

http://www.robertlstephens.com/essays/shafarevi...

Beejj,
You seem to be a nice guy in many ways, and we agree on so many things; but as to faith in God I believe you are irrational - more so, like Karl Marx and Leon Trotsky - Theophobic. Your hatred of faith in God is so intense that you've overlooked the fact that atheism is its self a faith. No one on earth can escape faith of one sort or the other - and that includes you and all atheists. You are promoting the propaganda that faith in God is somehow against reason and science; overlooking the truth that faith in God is outside the realm of reason and science, and overlooking the fact that nearly all the great scientists of the enlightenment were believers in God. I majored in Biochemistry with a minor in Physics before graduating from Medical School, and I maintain a special interest in genetics. You need to be re-educated yourself; you don't even know the definition of faith and reason - you have been brainwashed and indoctrinated yourself. I'm not trying to convert you to my faith - you are on your own - I'm simply pointing out that your faith is as irrational as mine.

• Science is the process of determining how matter behaves using observation, testing and reason; with reason defined as the ability to see and understand self-evident truth.

• Faith is any belief undiscoverable by science, which is to say any belief which is unobservable and untestable.

• Religion contains faith that eternal God created matter; an irrational, supernatural belief not based on direct observation.

• Atheism contains faith that matter is either eternal or created it's self; an irrational, supernatural belief not based on direct observation.

• By definition there can be no conflict between Science and either Atheistic Faith or Religious Faith since all faith is outside the domain of science, and science is likewise outside the domain of any faith. True faith and true science are, and always have been, mutually exclusive and never in conflict.

Wow. Well spoken.

I've heard that argument before that Atheism is in itself a faith.
It's hard to equate disbelief as an example of faith;it's illogical, tautological or an oxymoron.
The best refutation I've heard is to describe total baldness as a hairstyle.
I've been an atheist most of my life;since I see faith in a deity as fanciful.
Nevertheless I have much sympathy with Deists like Sir W who believe that our amazing universe may have had a prime mover.
In addition both Beej and myself seem to embrace Christian principles (but without a Godhead)as they accord with the golden rule.
Which God do you subscribe to SR amidst the available choices?(Jehova,Baal,Zeus,Odin etc.)although I'm pretty sure it's not our old pal Allah.
Until someone gives me real evidence of such a moiety I'm happy to maintain my disbelief.
Believing, that belief, is a vestige of primitive superstition; employed by mountebanks and fraudsters to explain the inexplicable to their gullible flock.
The non overlapping magisterium argument is one that I do not hold.
Curiously our educational programs demonstrate remarkable similarities.
May your God go with you old son!
BTW Fjordman's description of Marxism is excellent.

Damn - try this:

http://97.74.65.51/readArticle.aspx?ARTID=13978

The link isn't coming across - try this:

- http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guides/Z-Soc...

Oops - try this one:

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guides/Z-Soc...

If you found Fjordman to be a good source of understanding, I believe you'll find Loberfeld to be as good or better.

http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/guides/Z-Soc...

May your Godly moral principles go with you, brother.

hellosnackbar,
I became attracted to atheism during Medical School but finally realized that it was simply another faith. I don't think you have fully considered what I wrote above. Faith is any belief undiscoverable by science - any belief which is not based on observation. Since God is not directly observable it is clear that belief in God is faith and falls outside the realm of science. On the other hand, if one believes that God does not exist, then the Universe is either irrationally eternal or irrationally created it’s self out of nothing. Since the origin of an eternal, i.e.: an infinitely old, Universe is not directly observable, it is clear that belief in an eternal Universe falls outside the realm of science, and so too all events which preceded the Big Bang. Atheism is faith. You and Beejj need to sit quietly for a few hours and consider these things further.

I believe in the Biblical God, but I agree with Beejj that the Biblical God behaved in inconsistent ways. On balance the morality of the Ten Commandments, the valuation of truth, the Golden Rule, the command to love one's neighbor as one's self, etc. are enough for me to make rational acceptance - not blind submission.

One problem with atheistic faith is that it fails to ascribe infinite value to the individual; as with Marxism the individual has measurable, i.e.: economic, value. Individuals stripped of infinite value are subject to government power which denies the individual his/her God-given rights to life, liberty and creative pursuit of happiness (private property honestly earned through labor). Does one's right to free speech come from a group of other people (government) or does it come from God? How can an atheist defend the sacredness and inalienability of the individual's human rights?

No wonder so much of Africa is a war zone. Can it be surprising that so much violent conflict is common in places where Islam is in contact with the rest of the world?

Lessee, the Egyptians, Hittites, Hebrews, Greeks, Romans, Huns, Tatars, Mongols, Lombards, Spanish, French, Franks, English and Americans all did the same thing....rolled across vast areas to conquer. And so did many more. So what's yer point exactly????? War is the NATURAL state of man. The sooner we all realiZe it, the better off we'll all be. Peace is a myth fostered by the rest periods between wars...that's all. (I just capitalized the z there to jazz up you "English" dudes. LOL)

Yes, history is full of war. War is as natural to human nature as fighting with your spouse. Some fights are not worth continuance. The issue is not critical enough for either party. Other issues require some type of resolution. In the case of the U.S., the issue of slavery in 1860 was one that demanded a resolution.

Islam has a number of issues of this type. These issues are much of the reason why the warfare is so common throughout the Islamic world and in places where Islam is in contact with the world.

Joe, to look at such events in modern Africa is to take a peek into the very early days of Islam: when its warriors rode out of Arabia to conquer and spread the word by the edge of the sword.

“If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.” George Washington

A statement of self evident fact SR.
Freedom of speech is the cornerstone of civilisation;anybody who opposes it is ergo uncivilised.

As an aside I'm still amused that the spell checking mechanism calls out when I use s instead of z in such words as civilisation.
Many years ago a young American lad expressed surprise that English people spoke English.
Clearly his English teacher had never mentioned that immutable fact.

That's funny, my Irish buddy. Do you recall the American bloke who said that if English was good enough for Jesus, it was good enough for him? Was it Funky who told us this? That American's name should be immortalised. Nothing less than a bronze statue will suffice.

The ise/ize business is tricky, isn't it? Greek comes into it, although I am not a classical scholar to be able to expand on this. I always use "ise" and may the devil take the hindmost. The meaning is clear enough.

The Froggies are looking good this year, aren't they? I love the fact that they have an explosive centre named Bastard, near enough. Is Willie John still above ground? Pray let the answer be "yes".

Off topic:
I've watched all the 6 nations games Beej,and have arrived at the conclusion that it's still quite open.
Every side seems to have a propensity to effect unforced errors at a critical moment;as well as pointless kicking down the field(a bit like tennis).
This has lead to very harsh criticism from Jonathan Davis(the most talented Welsh player of his generation by a country mile;I've been a fan since the ealy eightieswhen I first saw him play)
His lambasting of tactics is echoed by Brian Moore;old "pitbul"l is amazeingly articulate and now has a regular column in the daily T.
The player you refer to is called Bastereau;he is built like a prop but has an astonishing turn of pace; making
him a real handful when he gets the ball in space.
I watched some Australian Rugby League a while ago and in particular a chap called Darren Lockyer.
This chap is no fancy pants player ;but his passing and ball distribution is peerless.
Yes WJ McBride is still with us and so is Willie Duggan whom I know personally.
Strangely enough in the past I thought you might be Barry John???;I seem to recall he taught physics,
Now there was a player who made the hairs of my neck stand on end!